Moving Toward Communism

[Joe Republic]

Let me ask you the same question I've asked other communists on this forum: Where is the shining example of a successful communist nation? Where is the communist nation that has come anywhere near providing the level of prosperity, freedom and opportunity that our capitalist society provides for us? There are none!

In fairness (and I'd like to point out that I am not a communist and never will be),  there has never been a true communist country because none of the governments we've seen have actually abided by Marx's principles.  Lenin adapted the theory into Marxism-Leninism, which is really a bastardization of the original.  Anywhere else that has tried has been stunted by civil war (Russia and China) or stunted by a foreign power (Cuba, Indo-China, North Korea, Eastern Europe - which was already destroyed by 30 years of war).

Communism promises shared prosperity, but it only deliveries shared poverty and misery.

Exactly for the reasons listed above.  None of the countries have been allowed to exercize true communist philosophy, either because of external influence, internal weakness and instability, or the power of one corrupt mad dictator.  None of this is what Marx originally had in mind.

Freedom is also lost with communism since individual rights must be sacrificed for the common good.

This is true in my opinion, and is Reason #1 of about a hundred for why I'll never agree with communism.

Beyond that communists seem to have a nasty habit of murdering millions of their own people.

Also true, but again, because of the reasons listed above.

*Just showing two sides to the story, is all...*

[Joe Republic]

In fairness (and I'd like to point out that I am not a communist and never will be),  there has never been a true communist country because none of the governments we've seen have actually abided by Marx's principles.  Lenin adapted the theory into Marxism-Leninism, which is really a bastardization of the original.  Anywhere else that has tried has been stunted by civil war (Russia and China) or stunted by a foreign power (Cuba, Indo-China, North Korea, Eastern Europe - which was already destroyed by 30 years of war).

Well, I don't begrudge you for trying to be objective, but I think a real question is 'can Marx's version of communism actually be implemented?' I seriously doubt it, and it would still be pretty bloody and without freedom if it could. Let's face it - Marx was an idiot.

Taking Marx's theory literally, that remains to be seen.  The theory goes that capitalism eventually reaches its peak, and then the underprivileged underclass inevitably revolt and take over.  Every country that has so far had communist revolutions or imposed governments took place where capitalism was nowhere near its peak, and therefore there was no wealthy economy to take advantage of.  Hence why they all soon descended into economic chaos and corrupt dictatorships.

[Joe Republic]

In fairness (and I'd like to point out that I am not a communist and never will be),  there has never been a true communist country because none of the governments we've seen have actually abided by Marx's principles.  Lenin adapted the theory into Marxism-Leninism, which is really a bastardization of the original.  Anywhere else that has tried has been stunted by civil war (Russia and China) or stunted by a foreign power (Cuba, Indo-China, North Korea, Eastern Europe - which was already destroyed by 30 years of war).

Well, I don't begrudge you for trying to be objective, but I think a real question is 'can Marx's version of communism actually be implemented?' I seriously doubt it, and it would still be pretty bloody and without freedom if it could. Let's face it - Marx was an idiot.

Taking Marx's theory literally, that remains to be seen.  The theory goes that capitalism eventually reaches its peak, and then the underprivileged underclass inevitably revolt and take over.  Every country that has so far had communist revolutions or imposed governments took place where capitalism was nowhere near its peak, and therefore there was no wealthy economy to take advantage of.  Hence why they all soon descended into economic chaos and corrupt dictatorships.

Sounds like you are saying that communism can only be successful if it can take over a successful capitalist system. Maybe I would agree with that, but I would add that such success would be short-lived. Communism will not remain successful for the same reason that it cannot become successful. It simply cannot achieve the efficiency or innovation of competitive free market capitalism.

The economic chaos you mentioned is an unavoidable outcome of communism, IMHO.

Exactly.  Well, that's how I see it too anyway.  I guess you could see it as capitalism builds up the economy and makes it strong, but by creating a two- or multi-tier hierarchy of wealth.  When the economy is as strong as it possibly can be, the underclass majority rise up and share the wealth.  So yeah, that's when things start collapsing again.

Marx had it as a linear theory where the little guys take control and everybody is happy, end of story.  But anybody can see that if anything, it would go in circles.

[Joe Republic]

Communists are mentally ill people drowned in self-hate or primitive angst.

Oh great.  We were all doing fine here till you showed up.


Here come the "facts".....

[Joe Republic]

Communists are mentally ill people drowned in self-hate or primitive angst.

Oh great.  We were all doing fine here till you showed up.


Here come the "facts".....

You call getting smoked by a half-baked commie fine?

That doesn't even make sense.

Read the thread up until your last post and you'll see that we had so far managed to have a relatively civil debate on the pros and cons of Marxist theory.  Admittedly though, the original poster seems to be on his own in his opinion so far.

Calm down first or tone down your rhetoric before spouting off.  Otherwise civil debate just degenerates into pointless name-calling like all the other threads you've posted in.

[Joe Republic]

In fairness (and I'd like to point out that I am not a communist and never will be),  there has never been a true communist country because none of the governments we've seen have actually abided by Marx's principles.  Lenin adapted the theory into Marxism-Leninism, which is really a bastardization of the original.  Anywhere else that has tried has been stunted by civil war (Russia and China) or stunted by a foreign power (Cuba, Indo-China, North Korea, Eastern Europe - which was already destroyed by 30 years of war).

Well, I don't begrudge you for trying to be objective, but I think a real question is 'can Marx's version of communism actually be implemented?' I seriously doubt it, and it would still be pretty bloody and without freedom if it could. Let's face it - Marx was an idiot.

Like so many other moronic philosophers, Marx just spent a long time writting and explaining his stupid ideas.  Why do people cream over a dumb idea just because someone goes through a great deal of time explaining it?

Communism can only work in small voluntary ollectives.  that means that in order for a communist community to work effectively, everyone has to agree to give up their individual rights and work as a collective.  I would have no problem with voluntary communes full of zombies wearing jump-suits, just as long as they chose that fate.

But please don't force it on us.

Exactly.

What I've come to realize is that the communism we're all familiar with is basically the most extreme form of populism.  Not that they're right-wing on social issues, but more that they're authoritarian to the point of dictatorial.

What I don't get is why that is.  If anything, I would have thought communism would be the extreme form of liberalism.  I.e. quite literally, "power to the people".

Actually, now I think of it, I remember reading that Lenin and Trotsky had originally planned to set up their ideal Marxist state and then effectively shut down the government, leaving it to the people.  The fact that that isn't what happened shows that communism as extreme liberalism just doesn't work.

[Joe Republic]

I'm actually quite proud of my contributions to this thread.  I don't remember making them, however.