Israel-Gaza war

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Will this significantly help the Pro-Israel narrative in the west?

It'll significantly help Bibi (R-Israel), like most things Hamas does.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Austria is changing Ukraine flags to Israel.

This isn't about how big Putin's dick is, you parasite.

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It would be useful if this thread did not turn into a classic internet thread about ~The Conflict~ and be rendered as completely unreadable to non-psychopaths as something important and awful has happened and there are people who might wish to follow updates and to discuss things. Plenty of other places online where you can all defecate for attention.

At least a certain Axis "empathizer" isn't trying to make it about how based Putin is anymore. For now.

Do we think anything will come of this unity government idea?

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Quite a few people suddenly comfortable with advocating for the elimination of another seven million Jews. Wish I could be surprised, but I'm not.

Either way, we all know how that ends and Israel certainly doesn't want it, but there it is.

A lot of people in here also seem to think Israeli lives are inherently more valuable than non Israeli lives.

We have a separate thread for this now. That goes for both of you.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Quite a few people suddenly comfortable with advocating for the elimination of another seven million Jews. Wish I could be surprised, but I'm not.

Either way, we all know how that ends and Israel certainly doesn't want it, but there it is.

A lot of people in here also seem to think Israeli lives are inherently more valuable than non Israeli lives.

We have a separate thread for this now. That goes for both of you.

My comment was in direct response to people upthread stating they hope Iran gets involved so both countries destroy each other - aka, the elimination of everyone in Israel. This isn't some abstract argument.

Okay yes, that's fair. Sorry.

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New update from Netanyahu. Key quote:

He says he spoke with President Biden and other world leaders from France, Britain and beyond, thanks Biden for his “unreserved support,” and says he secured international backing for “freedom of action” for Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unreserved-support-says-israel-faces-challenging-days-but-will-win/

My (possibly piss-poor) reading of the tea-leaves leads me to think he is hinting at some operation to not just push Hamas out of the areas of Israeli territory it has captured, but break their rule over Gaza once and for all.

I think his warning to civilians to leave Gaza indicates a maximalist approach, yeah. As does thanking a Democratic President for anything.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

Well, Israel is already on track to exceed the civilian death toll from the initial Hamas attack. So I don’t see how they have moral high ground on that front.

It's not illegal for civilians to die from your military attacks. It is illegal to launch attacks without considering civilians, or worse, deliberately kill civilians as Hamas does. Taking civilian hostages is also a war crime. Israel has been more restrained-usually they attack military targets but in one of the most densely populated areas of the world and when Hamas conduct operations in civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties. If Israel were to just massacre the Gaza population then they'd be at Hamas's level but that isn't how they have behaved.

Bibi is implying that might change.

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Reports of rocket fire from Lebanon.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710872949165629840?t=zXiozZ4uWcg8Vnmpju...

Oh lord.

Does anyone know the range of these rockets? My grandmother is in Tel Aviv.

Tel Aviv is in range of some rockets but not all of them. However, it is obviously a lot safer than the North. Sorry to hear that and hope your grandmother is doing well.

I have a friend of a friend at Technion, in Haifa...

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Reports of rocket fire from Lebanon.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1710872949165629840?t=zXiozZ4uWcg8Vnmpju...

Oh lord.

Does anyone know the range of these rockets? My grandmother is in Tel Aviv.

Tel Aviv is in range of some rockets but not all of them. However, it is obviously a lot safer than the North. Sorry to hear that and hope your grandmother is doing well.

Thank you for the info. She is with a cousin who works for the State Department. I am told that if things really go south they will all be airlifted out by the Marines, but this is still nerve-wracking. I may stay up an extra hour or two to call her.

Do it. Make sure your loved ones are okay.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I have avoided this thread until now, but Haley/Ryan has forced me to jump in. I believe Israel should carry out an operation to destroy the infrastructure of Hamas in the Gaza Strip and eliminate them as a political and military force. This is what I believe to be a reasonable, albeit hawkish position. Haley/Ryan's call for ethnic cleansing is out of line, inappropriate, ghoulish, and if Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing, it would face global condemnation.

How does Israel do that? If they do it once they pop up again. Do you want Israel to occupy Gaza forever?

If that is what it takes, yes. Infinitely preferable to the scenario you outline. Israel is in a no-win position: they tried land for peace in Gaza and it clearly failed. This tragically suggests that some sort of indefinite occupation is probably the only acceptable outcome, unless they can manage to sufficiently bribe Egypt to foist Gaza off on them (which is not going to happen, it is pure wishful thinking).

That means hundreds of Israelis dead per year. There is not West Bank solution here because Gaza is so dense: Israel can't even just maintain troops at the edge of cities because Gaza is basically one urban conglameration.

I agree that Egypt won't voluntarily take them which is why Egypt can't be given a choice.

Are you suggesting invading or threatening to invade Egypt if they don't admit the entire Gazan population?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Death toll in Israel passed 700. For context, during the second intifada of 2000-2004, 1057 Israelis died (70% of them civilians). During the Yom Kippur war, 2689 Israelis died, presumably mostly military.

Prof. Kontorovich is probably already correct when he claims this is the biggest slaughter of Jewish civilians since the Holocaust. This is really the magnitude we're speaking about. Those who always claimed they would self-evidently stand on the correct side back then now have the opportunity to truly prove what their character is like.

Yes, I think one can even have a fairly maximalist antizionist position and still condemn the Palestinian liberation/conquest/reconquest/whatever being effectuated via an antisemitic cult filming old ladies' deaths with their own cell phones, taking hostages and then raping them, dragging mutilated corpses of civilians through the streets, etc. etc. etc.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Death toll in Israel passed 700. For context, during the second intifada of 2000-2004, 1057 Israelis died (70% of them civilians). During the Yom Kippur war, 2689 Israelis died, presumably mostly military.

Prof. Kontorovich is probably already correct when he claims this is the biggest slaughter of Jewish civilians since the Holocaust. This is really the magnitude we're speaking about. Those who always claimed they would self-evidently stand on the correct side back then now have the opportunity to truly prove what their character is like.

Yes, I think one can even have a fairly maximalist antizionist position and still condemn the Palestinian liberation/conquest/reconquest/whatever being effectuated via an antisemitic cult filming old ladies' deaths with their own cell phones, taking hostages and then raping them, dragging mutilated corpses of civilians through the streets, etc. etc. etc.

Most people condemn the actions of Hamas.

Yes, thankfully. People who aren't doing so, or who are equivocating about doing so, are a very loud minority.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Looks like a couple American Evangelical Fundis got caught up in the mix...

Reminds me a bit when i was living in Germany in the early / mid 1990s, working for the salvation army when the captain was telling stories about visiting the holy land, when his cars were hit by Palestinian teenager tossing rocks.

Reality is that many Palestinians living in the West Bank identify as Christian, at a time where "Jews for Jesus" was a thing, so whatever Atlas Christian Fundis might well forget how the whole scene played out amongst Orthodox Jews, including my older sister arguing with my evangelical christian dad.

Politics in this part of the middle east have lot less to due with religion, than ownership of land, combined with neighboring countries floating around after the post-colonial era looking for moral authority.

"Two Alabama church groups that were visiting Israel last week are stuck in the country, according to Facebook videos posted by the churches.

Rev. Thack Dyson of St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Daphne, Ala., said in a Facebook live video from Israel on Sunday that he and his church group were safe in Galilee. He said many of their flights have been canceled, but he hopes they will return by Thursday."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-gaza-strikes-hamas-netanyahu/

I would not assume that Episcopalian church groups in Galilee are at all Evangelical or fundamentalist in orientation, even ones from Alabama.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If true, he should resign in disgrace
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1711394276687388687

Is this not a function of "how many such warnings the Israeli government gets on a weekly basis?"  If they get 5 or 6 of such warnings every week how is Netanyahu supposed to know this particular warning has legs. 

One would think Israel's own (very good when it's not being made to prioritize mollycoddling settlers) security apparatus would have been able to corroborate the Egyptians on this.

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Hamas have just released a statement: they will execute the hostages (on video) if the unannounced (i.e. no roof knocking) airstrikes continue.

Are they actually stupid?

What should they do according to you?

It's not best practice to take actions that will radicalize polite liberal opinion against your cause for decades, not that Hamas cares as long as they can retain a hard core of knee-jerk West Bad support on the "left" even if they start ass-raping the disproportionate number of attractive young women they've abducted (on-camera. Off-camera they manifestly already have) instead of killing them.

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The Church of Saint Porphyrius, one of the oldest in the world, has been destroyed in an airstrike.

F**k. Not that it in any way compares to the human suffering, but as a Church History Person this hits me hard.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Zelensky blames Russia

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1711448994813997135

That seems like fake news.

Sorry i don't trust Zelenskyy for his word here, and he frankly should shut up. It doesn't make his case look better.

If he has the data, release it.

It's clearly part of Ukraine's own informational strategy against Russia, not something that's intended to be a serious intervention on Israel-Palestine for its own sake. I don't blame Zelensky for taking this approach but I don't think we should be taking it too seriously.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/ELuttwak/status/1711445503240458452

"Optimists." Sure.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Fighting a successful war and changing political leadership isn't always incompatible. I will just point out the famous example of the UK in 1940-Winston Churchill became Prime Minister literally on the day that Nazi Germany invaded four countries including France.

Or Winston Churchill getting booted from power after WWII

Was this the mindset of voters in Britain in 1945 towards Winston Churchill right before he lost his bid for another term as Prime Minister?

'Thank you for your service to the defense of Britain and its empire.  You have served your purpose.  You may go now.'

Basically, yes.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It's not that they approve of Hamas's method.

Rather, it's schadenfreude that harm has come to their oppressor.

Drawing a firm distinction here seems like it might be ideologically motivated on your part.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I certainly hope the beheaded babies story is atrocity propaganda, considering the alternative of it being, you know, real.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Sounds like some signaling regarding Israeli Military potential movements using conventional combined arms strategy.

"He made the remarks in a daily update distributed by the IDF Spokesperson to the foreign media. Conricus added that since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, it has built "a network of tunnels under Gaza City, which is the center, all the way to Khan Yunis and Rafah."

"We are trying to reach the lower layer that Hamas has built for itself," he said. "It is not intended for the entry of civilians, it is not bunkers for Gazan citizens for when Israel attacks, it is for the use of Hamas and other terrorists so that they can continue to fire missiles and send terrorists."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/

Tunnel combat is n a s t y even compared to other urban warfare. Lord have mercy.

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Wartime coalition government agreed. A special cabinet consisting of Bibi, Gallant, and Gantz as members, and Dermer and Eisenkot as observers will be formed.

What's been the response of the Arab parties?

Condemning Hamas from wall to wall. Abbas and Ra’am severely, 40 Bedouins died on Saturday. Odeh denouncing violence and telling Hamas they were doing fine since 48 and calls on everyone to refrain from violence. Tibi condemned the violence and offered his help in negotiating release of prisoners.

No idea on Balad but they’ll most likely be banned by the next elections

Good.

What in particular makes Balad so different on this?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Naftali Bennett having an unpleasantly callous right-wing jao??? Say it ain't so!

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Speaking as someone who went on the record as HOPING the thing about the babies was atrocity propaganda, because the alternative was it being real and some of us are trying to maintain a sense of the human cost here rather than just what makes the other team look real bad, anyone acting like it somehow vindicates Hamas that most of the babies seem to have been burned or shot rather than beheaded desperately needs to take a hard look inward. And possibly go to confession and/or next year's Yom Kippur services.