If Minnesota had the UK parties (user search)
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  If Minnesota had the UK parties (search mode)
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Author Topic: If Minnesota had the UK parties  (Read 7310 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
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Posts: 67,733
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« on: December 02, 2008, 06:58:30 PM »


Most orthodox Jews in London do anyway (but, with some interesting exceptions, almost certainly by smaller margins than would be normal for their socioeconomic status). The Jewish vote outside London is mostly Labour and I suspect (though there's basically no way of knowing for sure) that at least a plurality of secular Jews in London are Labour as well (though not for Livingstone, lol).
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
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Posts: 67,733
United Kingdom


« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 07:18:10 PM »

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

There's no set pattern, really. You can get LibDem M.P's elected in all sort of areas (including some that seem absurd) based on personality cults (erm... "personal votes"... sorry...) and so on and held in place by tactical voting (which can often reach extreme levels). Even that semi-solid splash of yellow in the Southwest is deceptive; LibDem support in Devon and eastern Cornwall is agricultural and rather conservative (the only frequent difference between Liberal and Tory voters in these areas is religious identification; Anglicans being Tories, everyone else tending to be Liberal), LibDem support in western Cornwall (NOT actually a traditional Liberal stronghold) is a strange thing based mostly on personal votes and mild nationalist sentiment, while LibDem strength in Somerset is mostly a result of Labour weakness* in place that has never been overwhelmingly Tory, combined with some very popular local Liberal figures (like Paddy Ashdown) emerging at just the right time.

In any case, there aren't any agricultural areas in Britain like the agricultural parts of the Midwest; the social structures and farming patterns are too different.

*Labour used to be surprisingly strong in Somerset actually, but got killed dead by economic change (the postwar collapse in agricultural employment (farmworkers have traditionally cast a pretty solid Labour vote) and the final, fatal collapse of the ancient woollen-textiles industry).
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
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Posts: 67,733
United Kingdom


« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 07:24:56 PM »

The UK posters can enlighten us more, but I think a lot of it is basically a Celtic fringe "Labour are the evil urban socialists, but the Conservatives are the English landlord overseers" vote & not particularly ideological.

More or less true of what's left of traditional rural Liberal support in Wales (though delete "urban" from "evil socialists" (Welsh Labour is stereotypically associated with small industrial towns rather than the cities) and replace "English" with "Anglican"), actually. The Ceredigion Liberals were once so right-wing that their colour was blue into the '70's), actually.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
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Posts: 67,733
United Kingdom


« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 08:19:29 PM »

Haven't they historically voted Conservative? I may be wrong on this.

Dealing mostly with voting in General Elections here... local elections are much more complicated and can greatly confuse things... some of this is my opinion based on my own work so... aha...

Jews (orthodox, secular and all the shades between) usually voted overwhelmingly Liberal before the First World War, mostly because Tory candidates in areas next to Jewish slums tended to love using anti-semitism in their campaigns (often very successfully; there were more than a few parts of the East End that cast far bigger votes for Tory candidates than would normally be expected). After the war, Labour began to dominate in all the Jewish slum areas while better off Jews increasingly moved to rapidly developing middle class suburbs (where, I think but don't know for sure, they continued to vote Liberal) and from the 1930's onwards the CPGB started to do well in some overwhelmingly Jewish parts of the East End, culminating in the election of a Jewish Communist M.P in 1945 (for Stepney Mile End). Here's a picture of him:



The CPGB retained a surprisingly large share of the Jewish vote (especially in the East End) until the '70's, only dying off as the Jewish community grew more affluent and moved to the suburbs. I think they had a couple of councillors in Stepney until the mid '60's (I'll check this soon).

Overall, the Jewish vote (including the orthodox in London; though note that Golders Green and so on were never Labour areas; the favoured party of protest against Tory anti-semitism remained the Liberals and there is still a curiously strong LibDem vote in local elections in that general area) remained mostly Labour until the 1980's although this ever weakened by increasing affluence, suburbanisation and the decline of traditional Tory anti-semitism. In the '80's there was a big swing to the Tories caused by a mixture of things; Thatcher-era Tories just did very, very well in all kinds of suburbia and no ethnic-religious group (then anyway) was as suburban as Jews were, Thatcher was on very good terms with senior figures in the various orthodox communities, while the Left (stronger in London Labour than anywhere else in the country) was widely seen as anti-Jewish; the nasty deselection of Reg Freeson (an old fashioned Jewish lefty) by Livingstone in 1985 can be seen as symbolic. Another picture is needed. Here's Freeson in the '80's;



There was then a huge swing away from the Tories amongst all the more affluent ethnic-religious minorities in the 1990's (most suburban London Hindus had actually voted Tory in General Elections in the '80's, for example), leaving us more-or-less where we are now; in other words, that there is no longer a fairly uniform Jewish vote and that the community is broadly (very, very, very broadly) split along London (including (and especially, actually) Herts and so on) - Rest of England and Orthodox - Secular lines. Affluence is also a factor, of course. With the exception of Hasidic communities the richer the area, the more likely it is that Jews will vote "normally" for their socio-economic status.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,733
United Kingdom


« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 08:46:14 PM »

I've checked the Stepney thing and... the CPGB won all three seats in the St Mary's ward (Tower Hamlets LBC) as late as 1968. They lost one of these in a by-election in 1969 and lost their last two seats (by miles) in 1971, and polled respectable (but ever declining) votes until finally vanishing in 1986. St Mary's ward covered the core of Whitechapel and still has a small-but-sizeable Jewish population in a few places. Area is plurality Bangladeshi now.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,733
United Kingdom


« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2008, 12:52:54 AM »

One way of cheating might to see which rural areas FL did best in in the '30's; rural politics is often about traditions, after all.
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