Palestine college student protest megathread

[jojoju1998]

I saw it on social media people with Ukraine flags in the bio and being anti-Russian aggression. About the only segment of pro-Russian and pro-Putin Americans are MAGA Trumpers who hate Zelenskyy.

Patently false. The far-left is even more rabidly pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine than the MAGA idiots.
Unless of course Greenwald, Tracy, Susan Sarandon, Jill Stein, etc. are considered MAGAs.

And Jeremy Corbyn.

[jojoju1998]

I mean, you could also ask the same about this place? We have a 200 plus page thread in IGD about the conflict post-october, and discussion on the topic isn't exactly sequestered to that thread, with numerous threads on that topic, all garnering far more comment than, say, Armenia-Azerbaijan or the Congo. I imagine anti-Semitism is part of it, sure, but that clearly doesn't explain everything about why Americans are far more likely to be invested in the conflict than most other foreign policy matters, which are normally the domain of diaspora types, people associated with the national security or diplomatic aperatus and the odd crank.

Part of it is anti semitism. The other part is that the conflict plays into the narratives about the American culture wars.

[jojoju1998]

Revealing.

I live in Capitol Hill only a few blocks away from CHAZ.  This is a 100% accurate description of what it was.  You can find my posts on the subject at the time to confirm it (although knowing you, you probably already have most of my posts bookmarked).

We've glorified the hippies and student protest movements of the 60s so much that everyone 18-25 longs to recreate them.  They all want to get together and make a political statement for peace and love and harmony and justice and equity.  But they don't really want to do anything more than chant some slogans and do some marches, and they don't want to have to spend time actually learning about the subject.

So you just offer them a little street party for the cause, and say, hey come get drunk/high and laze about all day with your buddies, listen to some live music and feel the energy of a place where things are happening, maybe wear a little costume and take some photos of yourself looking like a civil rights leader, join in some chants when we tell you, and you'll get to tell your grandchildren you were part of the grand social justice movement of 2024.  That's like catnip.

If you were in 1968 would you have been much of a fan of student protests either?

Student Protests were not entirely a good thing. There were student protesters protesting desegregation in the American South in the 1950s and 60s.

[jojoju1998]

Revealing.

I live in Capitol Hill only a few blocks away from CHAZ.  This is a 100% accurate description of what it was.  You can find my posts on the subject at the time to confirm it (although knowing you, you probably already have most of my posts bookmarked).

We've glorified the hippies and student protest movements of the 60s so much that everyone 18-25 longs to recreate them.  They all want to get together and make a political statement for peace and love and harmony and justice and equity.  But they don't really want to do anything more than chant some slogans and do some marches, and they don't want to have to spend time actually learning about the subject.

So you just offer them a little street party for the cause, and say, hey come get drunk/high and laze about all day with your buddies, listen to some live music and feel the energy of a place where things are happening, maybe wear a little costume and take some photos of yourself looking like a civil rights leader, join in some chants when we tell you, and you'll get to tell your grandchildren you were part of the grand social justice movement of 2024.  That's like catnip.

If you were in 1968 would you have been much of a fan of student protests either?

Student Protests were not entirely a good thing. There were student protesters protesting desegregation in the American South in the 1950s and 60s.

Protesting in favor of the current system rather than in favor of changing it. Big difference.

BUT, constantly protesting to change the system, while being the benficieries of that very same system, is very hypocritical and it has a bit of a dissonance, don't you think ?






if these protesters get arrested, guess who's going to bail them out ? Probably their affluent parents, who probably work in the very same System, that they claim to hate. And once these guys graduate, and start getting jobs, they will probably have access to, and work in the very same system they claim to hate.

In 20 something odd years, we will probably see these guys getting cushy jobs at Wall Street, Big Tech,




The moment their parents cut off their credit cards, funding, I bet my 5 cents, we will never see these kids protesting again.

You want to bet ?

[jojoju1998]

Revealing.

I live in Capitol Hill only a few blocks away from CHAZ.  This is a 100% accurate description of what it was.  You can find my posts on the subject at the time to confirm it (although knowing you, you probably already have most of my posts bookmarked).

We've glorified the hippies and student protest movements of the 60s so much that everyone 18-25 longs to recreate them.  They all want to get together and make a political statement for peace and love and harmony and justice and equity.  But they don't really want to do anything more than chant some slogans and do some marches, and they don't want to have to spend time actually learning about the subject.

So you just offer them a little street party for the cause, and say, hey come get drunk/high and laze about all day with your buddies, listen to some live music and feel the energy of a place where things are happening, maybe wear a little costume and take some photos of yourself looking like a civil rights leader, join in some chants when we tell you, and you'll get to tell your grandchildren you were part of the grand social justice movement of 2024.  That's like catnip.

If you were in 1968 would you have been much of a fan of student protests either?

Student Protests were not entirely a good thing. There were student protesters protesting desegregation in the American South in the 1950s and 60s.

Protesting in favor of the current system rather than in favor of changing it. Big difference.

BUT, constantly protesting to change the system, while being the benficieries of that very same system, is very hypocritical and it has a bit of a dissonance, don't you think ?






if these protesters get arrested, guess who's going to bail them out ? Probably their affluent parents, who probably work in the very same System, that they claim to hate. And once these guys graduate, and start getting jobs, they will probably have access to, and work in the very same system they claim to hate.

In 20 something odd years, we will probably see these guys getting cushy jobs at Wall Street, Big Tech,




The moment their parents cut off their credit cards, funding, I bet my 5 cents, we will never see these kids protesting again.

You want to bet ?

Your logic may sort of apply to Columbia, but it certainly doesn't apply to UT, OSU, and hundreds of other state schools with huge pro Palestine movements doing the same thing right now.

According to the US Department of Education, 81 percent of Columbia's Students are considered to be affluent.

University of Texas ? 77 percent. Roughly the same. Same goes for Oregon State.


These are not your local commuter colleges. If you want to compare, CSU Fullerton has around 50 percent affluent students, a far lower percentage. There isn't a large heated demostration that I know of happening at CSU Fullerton, and even there is a protest, it's more likely to be smaller.

[jojoju1998]

I've just been treating the other 12 page thread as the 'de-facto' mega thread on these protests, but I definitely do believe there should be an official one.

https://twitter.com/Spacejunc/status/1784353017912779158

I did a paper in college on Angela Davis.

[jojoju1998]

What a stupid overreaction. I can't believe these authoritarian crackdowns are forcing me to side with the clowns on the US pro-Palestinian movement.

It's what the clowns want. They want the police to overreact.

[jojoju1998]

https://twitter.com/CarolinaReview/status/1785368378183479581

These jackasses are going to potentially elect Trump, which is their goal, even if it's not going to be driven by them but by people repulsed by them!

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/many-dont-know-key-facts-about-us-constitution-annenberg-civics-study-finds


Hmm... interesting.

[jojoju1998]

The anti Americanism has always been my biggest problem with the modern left. It is so, so easy to frame a pro America/anti Israel worldview but I guess these guys would rather leave it to Gen z neckbeards. A shame. "not one more cent for Israel" could unite forces from across the spectrum, putting a keffiyeh on George Washington will not.

I'm glad that Horus is finally seeing my point.

[jojoju1998]

Columbia is well on its way to being CUNY-Morningside at this rate. With the 90K tuition. At least the CUNYs don't cost much

Why’s being like CUNY supposed to be an threat?

Columbia is an Ivy League school (prestige). Its reputation is being tanked by the protesters so badly that it will be no more prestigious than a CUNY if they don't fix this fast

Columbia's masters programs is increasingly turning into a degree mill anyway.

[jojoju1998]

Many students at these elite institutions (one of which I attended) think they are profoundly entitled. The echo chamber of leftism and, frankly, Marxism within these institutions has resulted in a populace that is sorely incapable of defending their sometimes indefensible positions. These students have been told for decades that they are brilliant, gifted, and special. They expect others to treat them as such and believe that because of their intellectual achievements in high school and college, all of their options are worthy of belief.

They feel they are entitled to activism within its consequences. They think themselves brave but lack a cause worthy of their passion. It is, in fact, extremely depressing to watch. Young minds are being utterly rotted by the poison that has infected our higher education systems, our media, and weak willed leaders in power.

All of this at Columbia was avoidable. The blame rests on the protestors for breaking laws while claiming they are entitled to anger, violence, hate speech, and a prestigious education with a fat paycheck upon graduation. Even more so though, the blame must rest on those in power who have perpetuated this culture, accepted those students that do not deserve it on grounds of woke-ideology and progressive accolades, and parents who refuse to raise children to love this country, despite its flaws. The crisis of patriotism has led to decline across institutions because the leaders of our institutions perpetuate the rot. I hope this is a wake up call. I doubt it will be. I pray I am wrong.

The irony is; and what makes things so ironic; the actual Palestinians might not be in favor of extreme measures of protest after all; albeit still very supportive of Palestine.


From what i hear from my sister at Sac State, it seems as if many of these protests are not actually for Palestinian independence at all, and are being hijacked.

[jojoju1998]

https://twitter.com/TeresaWatanabe/status/1785580909795942766

https://twitter.com/TeresaWatanabe/status/1785575610469007471

From what I hear through the weeds in the higher education world in California, ( I have connections.), the UC and CSU Systems are extrmeley hesitant to use police force because they fear the optics.

[jojoju1998]

I don't know if this can be verified. But according to my sister who attends Sac State, the Protests at Sac State are in a civil war type of situation now.

The interlopers as she callss it, who are mostly white and rich, have been harassing the Palestinian protesters, and kicing the protesters out of the encampments for not " following " the program. And they're harassing the Gaza Refugees, as well as other students. The palestinian students are pissed, and ironically want the police to intervene, but Sac State Police are hesitant to intervene because of optics.

[jojoju1998]

The Cardinal Patriach of jerusalem, a staunch suppoter of Palestine by the way, says that he doesn't get the protests in America.

"After the Mass, Cardinal Pizzaballa told reporters that he struggles to understand the protests taking place across college campuses in the United States over academic institutions' investments in companies that do business with Israel.

"Universities are places where cultural debate, even when heated, even when tough, should be available at 360 degrees," he said. "The contrast of completely different ideas, harsh as they may be, must be expressed not through violence or boycotting, but by knowing how to confront one another."

"The world is made of different opinions that must be confronted, not by explosions but by discussions," he said."

https://angelusnews.com/news/world/cardinal-pizzaballa-holy-land/


If people are going to call him an israel shrill next then well....

[jojoju1998]

Are these protests going to die down once summer hits ?

[jojoju1998]

For those not in the Discord, I visited the UW encampment yesterday and it was basically what I expected based on my previous description that "this is just like the early days of CHAZ."

When I was at college we had an event every September for the freshmen where you would get six of your friends together and set up tents on the main student green, and you'd sleep over in the tents.  Everyone would decorate their tents so it kind of had this Halloween feel, and different student organizations and Greek houses would have their new freshman recruits turn their tents into an organization tent so it also served as kind of an orientation event.  You'd go to different tents to meet people and see what they were about.  And then there was also this kind of sexual aspect to it because the tents were coed so you were putting together a group of six friends you'd known for maybe a couple weeks, and maybe you wanted to know the girls better and hoped that by sleeping together in a small tent it would lead to some cuddling or some emotional intimacy or at least something to build on for the future.  It was also very socially stressful because "pick your top 6 friends" meant you would find out who considered you a top friend and who was going to exclude you.  Interesting phenomenon in general.

Anyway, that was what this reminded me of.  Every tent had its own "thing" going on and it was all playacting like they were either a warzone, or a music festival, or a mini-school.  So one tent was making s'mores, one tent was doing finger painting, one tent was offering to teach you about the time in 1475 the Jews kidnapped a toddler for ritual sacrifice and cannibalism.  There was some Arabic music being played over a speaker that I'm sure 95% of the students couldn't understand.  There were also tents for different organizations -- including one hilarious one for the evangelical christians on campus that said "Ask me why you will burn in hell" and was actually attracting the most attention as students wanted to intellectually defeat the guy trying to tell them why Jesus Christ was the truth.

It's very similar vibes to the early days of CHAZ, which people thought was just going to be a block party.  You had various pop-up canopies for different activities and organizations that you could browse, and there was food and drink and live music and most people were just treating it as a way to have fun.  But of course there were also lots of "ACAB" and "Defund the Police" and "Piggies go Home" and "Murderers!" and those kinds of signs and sidewalk chalk and posters and paintings and things like that, and plenty of people who wanted to tell you all about their ideology.  I really can't overstate just how much "From the river to the sea" and "Intifada!" are the two most popular slogans after the generic "Free Palestine" -- I thought "end the genocide" would be more popular but nope there was "intifada" plastered on everything in sight.

idk, kids in their 20s like doing this kind of thing, street festivals are one of the few ways left to have a proper third-space where people will actually want to talk to each other and socialize.  The problem is twofold.

First, they're doing it in service of a bad cause -- the Palestinian cause is bad, the intifada and 10/7 were blood-soaked terror events that are bad to celebrate or defend, and in particular the genocidal and racist anti-Zionist slogans like "from the river to the sea" are bad, and by and large they only support this because they are woefully misinformed, mostly by social media.  The sorts of signs and artwork that I saw of progressive paradise Palestine was reflective of this, you know, Gaza with the LGBTQIAP++ flag and things like that.

The second is that these sorts of things are often going to end up hijacked by the radicals and opportunists who will veer it off in a direction of violence and extremism and lawlessness.  That was what happened with CHAZ, that happened at Columbia and UCLA, I'm hoping it won't happen at UW because it will make my commute annoying to have streets shut down.

As someone who is not exactly a fan of the protests myself, you have gone too far.

[jojoju1998]

Don’t want to derail this thread but honestly one thing that these protests have made me think of is for these top schools, some of the students interviewed by the media are shockingly poor spoken. Obviously the media is going to post the more sensational interviews for the sake of narrative, but I think this really shows how schools like Columbia aren’t just full of these super bright bulbs.

Why do you think that is ?

[jojoju1998]

Biden could end this right now in less than an hour with a phone call to Netanyahu. Look at Begin and Reagan. The fact that Biden hasn't done so is unconscionable.

Different Contexts. The US had far more political, economic, and hard power prestige back in the 1980s, and Reagan used the spectre of the Cold War and the fear of communism to make Begin bend.

Biden has no such leverage. Indeed, If people notice by now, Israel is very very chummy with Russia, and China. Netanyahu has no reason to listen to Biden. He could just switch his alliegiances to those countries, and it would be a utter poltiical diaster for the US.

[jojoju1998]

If it wasn't 'indiscriminately bombing' Gaza then (according to the World Bank/UN, 92% of primary roads, 84% of medical facilities, the majority of homes (alone accounting for nearly $14bn in losses) would not have been destroyed and 1.7 million people displaced.

Just because the death total is 'low' (even though in % terms it's actually comparable to other conflicts) does not mean the bombing is somehow 'targeted' when there's massive structural destruction.

Dresden was obliterated as a city in a literal firebombing campaign in 1945. 'Only' 25000 people died.

So would you call the Dresden bombings a genocide ?

I think the word " Genocide " is being massively overused now, because if we're going down that road, and call the Dresden bombings a genocide, then well..... everything in war is a genocide then, heck you can call the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki a Genocide.

[jojoju1998]

If it wasn't 'indiscriminately bombing' Gaza then (according to the World Bank/UN, 92% of primary roads, 84% of medical facilities, the majority of homes (alone accounting for nearly $14bn in losses) would not have been destroyed and 1.7 million people displaced.

Just because the death total is 'low' (even though in % terms it's actually comparable to other conflicts) does not mean the bombing is somehow 'targeted' when there's massive structural destruction.

Dresden was obliterated as a city in a literal firebombing campaign in 1945. 'Only' 25000 people died.

So would you call the Dresden bombings a genocide ?

I think the word " Genocide " is being massively overused now, because if we're going down that road, and call the Dresden bombings a genocide, then well..... everything in war is a genocide then, heck you can call the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki a Genocide.

Where did I call it a genocide? I called it a firebombing campaign. With a relatively 'low' mortality rate despite the city being obliterated.

The point being that 'oh only X were killed' is not an indicator of the lack of severity of an urban bombing campaign.

I agree how many died on it's own is not a good indicator but how many died during a period of time is a good indicator. 25,000 in a period of two days is a lot especially when the city had a population of around 600,000 people at that time. Compared to 35,000 out of around 2 million over six months and further, that 35,000 isn't all from bombings but also from ground combat. To me, that doesn't look anything like an indiscriminate bombing campaign.

By contrast, the atomic bombs in Japan killed over 200,000 people instantly.

[jojoju1998]

Good thread that pretty much explains my thoughts on this issue.

maybe.  What would happen if you asked a rando civil rights supporter in 1959 what they were marching for? Would they say something like "I'm here because it's not right that black folk and white folk can't go to school and shop together...ride the bus together. play little league, all the stuff" or would they run away or say amazingly stupid things?


and even if you're 100% correct, it doesn't make it not funny to outsiders.

The Civil Rights Movement of the 50s and 60s, had strong credibility through it's leadership. MLK, John Lewis, were not just.... men of moral character, but they were also pretty politically savvy, and had realistic goals in mind, and they were also astute intellectuals.


Who in the pro Palestinian movement in the US now has the pedigree, charisma, and the stature of MLK ?

[jojoju1998]

Good thread that pretty much explains my thoughts on this issue.

maybe.  What would happen if you asked a rando civil rights supporter in 1959 what they were marching for? Would they say something like "I'm here because it's not right that black folk and white folk can't go to school and shop together...ride the bus together. play little league, all the stuff" or would they run away or say amazingly stupid things?


and even if you're 100% correct, it doesn't make it not funny to outsiders.

The Civil Rights Movement of the 50s and 60s, had strong credibility through it's leadership. MLK, John Lewis, were not just.... men of moral character, but they were also pretty politically savvy, and had realistic goals in mind, and they were also astute intellectuals.


Who in the pro Palestinian movement in the US now has the pedigree, charisma, and the stature of MLK ?

They were also very unpopular.

Sure, but they set the stones so that it would become popular. You get my point ?


These protests now might be popular, but they certainly will not have the long standing impact that the civil rights movement did.



You get my point ?

[jojoju1998]

How American to kick out people cause you don’t like what they’re saying

We don't let people into the country because we don't like what they're saying.  This includes proven Nazis, Communists,  Jihadic Terrorists, and many others.  And we don't allow their supporters in either.

Hamas is Jihadist Terrorism.  We would not allow pro-Hamas persons into the US if they weren't here.  Why should we allow people who actively support Jihadist Terrorism to remain in the country when they are not citizens, and especially if they are only here on a temporary visa?

When people who are not citizens and are here on a temporary Visa should "Death to America" or declare an Intifada on America, it's time for them to go.  We are under no obligation to assist in our own destruction as a nation.  We have enough nutty citizens.  We don't have to accommodate nutty foreigners, particularly when they wish our destruction and support a terrorist organization.

The United States is the most welcoming country for free speech. Why should the first amendment not apply to foreign nationals?

The First Amendment applies to persons.  The First Amendment does not guarantee persons the right to remain in the US or become citizens if they are not going to be loyal citizens.  (And Hamas sympathizers, by virtue of their proclamations of Intifida and "Death to America" clearly signal their intent to not be loyal.

We won't throw them in jail for their speech, but their speech can impeach their character to the point where we can conclude that they are not fit to be citizens, and that they do not intend to be loyal Americans.  And past loyalties are not "speech"; they are "conduct"; a member of Hamas (there or here) has defined themself as an enemy of America.  We do not have to take in our enemies.

I would also state that the problem with the current demonstrations on campus in support of Hamas is about conduct; it's about False Imprisonment, Criminal Mischief, assault, battery, and other crimes.
That's not protected speech, but that IS what is happening.  (And, yes, these demonstrations are pro-Hamas; that's who's running the show in Gaza.)  People have the right to be stupid in America in their speech and lots of people on all ends of the political spectrum take advantage of that, but the right to be stupid and offensive does not include behavior that infringes on the rights to life, liberty, and property of others.

A vast portion of these protesters are white rich kids born and bred here in America.


Better take a look at ourselves and ask ourselves, what we're teaching these kids.

[jojoju1998]

I know that we like to instinctively defend people that appear to be on our side, but I strongly urge people who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause to realize how dangerous this crap is. Everybody in this country hates ritzy college activists. Everybody hates them. Just look at all the good causes they've helped destroy recently. Feminism is a complete joke now and women have fewer rights than they did half a century ago. Bernie Sanders went from being relatively competitive as a no-name challenger against the establishment candidate to being completely non-competitive against Biden. Environmentalism is largely a joke. Universal healthcare doesn't even seem to be a consideration now after years of "Medicare for All!" cringe. Black Lives Matter is associated exclusively with rioting and lefty bullsh-t and all of the momentum for change after Floyd's murder has been lost. Can we at least acknowledge that these people are terrible at everything they attempt to do? They don't even f-cking vote! There's no value to having these guys in your coalition.

There is a real chance for America to end its abusive relationship with Israel, but it's not going to happen if the Palestinian cause turns into the Green New Deal or #MeToo. If that happens, then any shift in public opinion against Israel could be lost or at least diminished. When these people become the face of your movement, at least half the country rejects your cause purely out of spite. (If you fail to understand this, then you don't understand America.) The pro-Palestinian people should treat these protesters like they're the plague.

It's because the Left Populist movement spent so many years outside the Democratic mainstream ( even during the New Deal Days ) that they..... don't exactly know how to operate inside the mainstream.