A Message to All Republicans Here...yes, I'm back for the next 24 hours only...

[The Duke]

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

I'm from middle America, and I sure as hell don't. The people you hear me trashing most are upper class yuppies who live in the cancerous pit that is suburbia.

You also are not a real Democrat.  You are a self-avowed Marxist who votes democrat because you don't like wasting your vote on the candidate that is closest to you ideologically.

[The Duke]

I'm from middle America, and I sure as hell don't. The people you hear me trashing most are upper class yuppies who live in the cancerous pit that is suburbia.

You bash on my kind of people a lot, and I live in the Suburbs, and I am NOT upper class....I wish I were....   

Psst.  Son't tell him that the suburbs are part of middle America.

[So the Heroes Fall]

you live in Boise Fresh, an urban city.

I don't consider this middle America.

[Nym90]

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe it is different where you live than where I live, but I have encountered very few middle America hating Democrats. Of course, I live in middle America, but yet my area is Democratic, so I guess people up here haven't gotten the message yet that Democrats hate them.

If Democrats hated middle America so much, Kerry wouldn't have won Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Illinois, and come very close in Ohio and Iowa.

Unless the people in these states are just stupid and haven't been properly "educated" yet as to what Democrats are really about.

Sure, there are middle America hating Democrats, but there are just as many Republicans who hate the Northeast and West Coast with a passion. A lot of Republicans from the South believe that we should saw California off and let it float out to sea, and that everything north of Pennsylvania should be nuked. Are they the majority within the party? Of course not.

[Gabu]

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

So?  If I moved all of 50 kilometers to Port Angeles, I would certainly join the Democratic Party.  I don't see what the big difference is being a few kilometers north of the border.

I don't claim to speak for the majority of Democrats now and I wouldn't claim to speak for the majority of Democrats if I was born and raised in America.  I am who I am and I speak for myself.  However, I don't see how my being Canadian invalidates my input.  Are we really that different?

[A18]

Maybe if someone didn't stop us from winning the War of 1812, we wouldn't have this problem.

[opebo]

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

I'm from middle America, and I sure as hell don't. The people you hear me trashing most are upper class yuppies who live in the cancerous pit that is suburbia.

You also are not a real Democrat.  You are a self-avowed Marxist who votes democrat because you don't like wasting your vote on the candidate that is closest to you ideologically.

Am I a real Democrat?

[The Duke]

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

So? If I moved all of 50 kilometers to Port Angeles, I would certainly join the Democratic Party. I don't see what the big difference is being a few kilometers north of the border.

I don't claim to speak for the majority of Democrats now and I wouldn't claim to speak for the majority of Democrats if I was born and raised in America. I am who I am and I speak for myself. However, I don't see how my being Canadian invalidates my input. Are we really that different?

Canadian political culture is different than American.  Even ifyou moved, you'd still not have grown up in the American political culture and would still be more Candian than American.

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe it is different where you live than where I live, but I have encountered very few middle America hating Democrats. Of course, I live in middle America, but yet my area is Democratic, so I guess people up here haven't gotten the message yet that Democrats hate them.

If Democrats hated middle America so much, Kerry wouldn't have won Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Illinois, and come very close in Ohio and Iowa.

Unless the people in these states are just stupid and haven't been properly "educated" yet as to what Democrats are really about.

Sure, there are middle America hating Democrats, but there are just as many Republicans who hate the Northeast and West Coast with a passion. A lot of Republicans from the South believe that we should saw California off and let it float out to sea, and that everything north of Pennsylvania should be nuked. Are they the majority within the party? Of course not.

Middle America is not red states, its red counties and precints.  Kerry won Michigan because of Detroit, which has a heavy black population, and the surrounding areas which are heavily union.  These groups are not representative of the intellectual firepower behind the Democrats, just the voting power (see my earlier post about the Democrats and their base).  Take Wisconsin for example.  Its a blue state, but if you go to Madison and then to Green Bay, you find two very different Americas.

When I say this tuff about Democrats hating middle America, I'm not talking about the voting base of the party.  They're too stupid to have independent thoughts anyway, as is the base of the Republican Party.  I'm talking about the intellectual base of the party.  The editorial boards of most newspapers, most network newsooms, college campuses, Hollywood, upper income areas of major urban centers, and the like.

Just look at Maureen Dowd, Thomas Friedman, and Paul Krugman and their most recent NYT columns, and then tell me they don't hate middle America.  Its right there in print for all to read.  This isn't conjecture, and its not something reasonable people can disagree about.  The intellectual elite of your party has exlicitly stated their hatred of middle America.

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

I'm from middle America, and I sure as hell don't. The people you hear me trashing most are upper class yuppies who live in the cancerous pit that is suburbia.

You also are not a real Democrat.  You are a self-avowed Marxist who votes democrat because you don't like wasting your vote on the candidate that is closest to you ideologically.

Am I a real Democrat?

No, you're a facsist who has believes in social and economic laissez faire, and for now thinks that social laissez faire and the destruction of organized religion takes first priority.  Until a few weeks ago, you even had a blue avatar.

[muon2]

you live in Boise Fresh, an urban city.

I don't consider this middle America.

On a per-capita basis, Scott county looks a lot like Minnesota as a whole. For instance:

White, non-Hispanics 92.4% vs. 88.2%
Language other than English spoken at home 6.9% vs. 8.5%
High-school graduates 91.0% vs. 87.9%
Bachelor's degree 29.4% vs. 27.4%
Per capita income $26.4 K vs. $23.2 K

The family sizes are larger, so the household income is propotionately larger.

[opebo]

When I say this tuff about Democrats hating middle America, I'm not talking about the voting base of the party.  They're too stupid to have independent thoughts anyway, as is the base of the Republican Party.  I'm talking about the intellectual base of the party.  The editorial boards of most newspapers, most network newsooms, college campuses, Hollywood, upper income areas of major urban centers, and the like.

Just look at Maureen Dowd, Thomas Friedman, and Paul Krugman and their most recent NYT columns, and then tell me they don't hate middle America.  Its right there in print for all to read.  This isn't conjecture, and its not something reasonable people can disagree about.  The intellectual elite of your party has exlicitly stated their hatred of middle America.

Well.. what's not to hate?  If someone is detestable, why shouldn't one hate them?

I think its very clear that the other side hate *us* in return.  I'd say both sides hate one another equally, and for very good reasons.

[J. J.]

When I say this tuff about Democrats hating middle America, I'm not talking about the voting base of the party.  They're too stupid to have independent thoughts anyway, as is the base of the Republican Party.  I'm talking about the intellectual base of the party.  The editorial boards of most newspapers, most network newsooms, college campuses, Hollywood, upper income areas of major urban centers, and the like.

Just look at Maureen Dowd, Thomas Friedman, and Paul Krugman and their most recent NYT columns, and then tell me they don't hate middle America.  Its right there in print for all to read.  This isn't conjecture, and its not something reasonable people can disagree about.  The intellectual elite of your party has exlicitly stated their hatred of middle America.

Well.. what's not to hate?  If someone is detestable, why shouldn't one hate them?

I think its very clear that the other side hate *us* in return.  I'd say both sides hate one another equally, and for very good reasons.

That's why we don't want the hate-monger wing of the Democratic party to ever get power.  Why should we vote for a party that hates us and tries to ram all of its dubious philosophies down our throats. 

The GOP keeps saying, okay, it is up to you.  The Democrats keep saying, do as we tell you to.

[Nym90]

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

So? If I moved all of 50 kilometers to Port Angeles, I would certainly join the Democratic Party. I don't see what the big difference is being a few kilometers north of the border.

I don't claim to speak for the majority of Democrats now and I wouldn't claim to speak for the majority of Democrats if I was born and raised in America. I am who I am and I speak for myself. However, I don't see how my being Canadian invalidates my input. Are we really that different?

Canadian political culture is different than American.  Even ifyou moved, you'd still not have grown up in the American political culture and would still be more Candian than American.

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe it is different where you live than where I live, but I have encountered very few middle America hating Democrats. Of course, I live in middle America, but yet my area is Democratic, so I guess people up here haven't gotten the message yet that Democrats hate them.

If Democrats hated middle America so much, Kerry wouldn't have won Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Illinois, and come very close in Ohio and Iowa.

Unless the people in these states are just stupid and haven't been properly "educated" yet as to what Democrats are really about.

Sure, there are middle America hating Democrats, but there are just as many Republicans who hate the Northeast and West Coast with a passion. A lot of Republicans from the South believe that we should saw California off and let it float out to sea, and that everything north of Pennsylvania should be nuked. Are they the majority within the party? Of course not.

Middle America is not red states, its red counties and precints.  Kerry won Michigan because of Detroit, which has a heavy black population, and the surrounding areas which are heavily union.  These groups are not representative of the intellectual firepower behind the Democrats, just the voting power (see my earlier post about the Democrats and their base).  Take Wisconsin for example.  Its a blue state, but if you go to Madison and then to Green Bay, you find two very different Americas.

When I say this tuff about Democrats hating middle America, I'm not talking about the voting base of the party.  They're too stupid to have independent thoughts anyway, as is the base of the Republican Party.  I'm talking about the intellectual base of the party.  The editorial boards of most newspapers, most network newsooms, college campuses, Hollywood, upper income areas of major urban centers, and the like.

Just look at Maureen Dowd, Thomas Friedman, and Paul Krugman and their most recent NYT columns, and then tell me they don't hate middle America.  Its right there in print for all to read.  This isn't conjecture, and its not something reasonable people can disagree about.  The intellectual elite of your party has exlicitly stated their hatred of middle America.

Gabu,

You aren't a Democrat, you're a Canadian who identifies with the Democratic Party on ideology when it comes to US elections.

Nym,

Most Democrats do detest adn condescend to middle America.  You may or may not realize this, but you are not a good example of the average Democrat.

I'm from middle America, and I sure as hell don't. The people you hear me trashing most are upper class yuppies who live in the cancerous pit that is suburbia.

You also are not a real Democrat.  You are a self-avowed Marxist who votes democrat because you don't like wasting your vote on the candidate that is closest to you ideologically.

Am I a real Democrat?

No, you're a facsist who has believes in social and economic laissez faire, and for now thinks that social laissez faire and the destruction of organized religion takes first priority.  Until a few weeks ago, you even had a blue avatar.

Ok, well that's very different from saying that most Democrats hate middle America. The voting base of the party has very different opinions, views, and ideas than the intellectual elite.

The same thing happened in reverse in 1996. Many conservative commentators said America was stupid for reelecting Bill Clinton. Even Bob Dole himself started getting this way near the end of the campaign, proclaiming "Where's the outrage, America?" at the end of many rants about scandals and the like. The implication clearly being that Americans were stupid to vote for Clinton.

Intellectual elites are entitled to their opinions as well as anyone else, but they aren't a majority of Democrats.

You can't just ignore the opinions of urban areas, unions, blacks etc. and discount Democratic victories that occur because of huge victories among these demographics. You'd best be careful, it sounds like you are close to expressing the same hate towards these groups that you are criticizing Democrats for showing towards GOP leaning groups.

The voting base of the party has much more power than the intellectual base, and that's true of the GOP as well. And they do have independent thoughts; many blacks and union members are socially conservative, yet they still vote for Democrats, for example.  Many people in upper income urban areas are economically conservative but still vote Democratic. It's not that they agree with Democrats on everything, but they agree with them on the issues that are most important to them.

Likewise with Republicans, there are many who have independent thoughts and ideas, but they agree with the GOP on the issues that matter most to them.

These folks aren't just voting monolithically; sure, some of them are, but most of them have thought about the issues, and that's led them to become the base of one party or another.

And Kerry didn't just win Michigan because of the metro Detroit vote; even having won it, he still could have lost the state if he had done worse outstate. He managed to get enough votes from voters in rural areas to win, even though he didn't carry most of those rural areas. You're mistakenly assuming that a candidate wins only through the strength of the areas in which he wins a majority; Kerry sufficiently reduced the GOP margin in their strongest areas enough to win, and that's just as important as running up a large margin in the areas that he did win. A vote is a vote is a vote.

[The Duke]

I'm not expressing any hate towards the voting base of the Democratic party, I'm the one pointing out that they don't have the animosity towards middle America the elites have.

[Nym90]

I'm not expressing any hate towards the voting base of the Democratic party, I'm the one pointing out that they don't have the animosity towards middle America the elites have.

True, and I commend you for that.

Looking back I think I did misread a bit, you actually insulted both bases, but I still don't think that either party base is necessarily stupid.

[??????????]

Bump for a great thread.