Greece 2012

[batmacumba]

Ingemann, the logic is that, apart from creative financial management, they did what they were expected to do. Everybody is closing the eyes to this and keeps only remembering their ways as smart-asses. Their tricks May be associated with, but were clearly not the central cause, and using that as the main rhetorical point for intervention is mean. It would have happend anyway, with or without evasion. And if the main issues don't come to the center of the debate, you folks will be faded to not getting out of this mess.

I fail to see how its anybody but the Greeks fault that they cheated, yes most expected some fraud in Greece, but no one had a idea of the scale, and the major problem was as long as it wasn't or couldn't be proved, no one was going to make accusations. When we now have the knowledge of the scale and but also hard proffs, no one is going to send more money, before they are sure that they aren't wasted.

Well, now It's me the one not following the logic: I kept defending through three posts that the issue are not the cheatings, that they are marginal, that the whole problem happens independently of their existence, and You kept ignoring my points and getting back to that. Also, as far as I'm aware, the demands put by the UE doesn't seem to focus on frauds but on cutting wellfare, independently of spreadsheet veracity.

If the whole issue was that poor financial management and frauds had led to the crisis, than there wouldn't be any arguing about. And also, It wouldn't reach the structural level It is now, neither would had started at other countrues. The problem here, again, is that's not the matter. The crisis exists without the evasion. And I dare say that the evasions helped the problem to be more bearable to the Greek population, but, again, this is not the issue at all. Please.

[State Comptroller Atkins]

It's quite amazing how many people I know are planning to go on holiday in Greece in the near future.

[Leftbehind]

I've seen it as a solidarity 'the Greeks are suffering, and tourism's big for the country, so we'll have a holiday there' thing.

[You kip if you want to...]

It's quite amazing how many people I know are planning to go on holiday in Greece in the near future.

Country in ruin or not, Greece is still amazing for we Brits abroad.

[Gustaf]

New poll from GPO, the 6th in a row that shows SYRIZA falling behind ND. The trend is undeniable now.

These polls all seem to be within the margin of error which is around 3%, so the reality is that this will be a tight race, and that's all we can say definitively.  A poll where the two top choices are withing the margin of error is a statistical tie for all intents and purposes.

You said the same thing the other day. If six polls show the same result, even within the margin of error, then what is the chance that they are ALL wrong?

And anyway, today we had three more. Two of them showed yet again ND ahead by a couple of points and one showed a tie. Compare these numbers to the unmistakable high single digit SYRIZA lead that everybody found the first 10 days after the May 6th election.

That is correct. (well, technically, it's a rhetorical question so it can't be, but still )

It is also not true that a 6% difference is insignificant if the MoE is 3%.

[Vosem]

Since there won't be any more public polls and it's doubtful anything will really change the state of the race, here are my predictions -- they come largely from averages, with some weighting. I actually put a quite a great deal of thought into this. Note that, when you take away the 50-seat bonus, ND/DISY only beat SYRIZA 71-70 -- meaning that, even though most thought it was pointless, the alliance with DISY, with these results, would have been the decisive moment of the campaign.

ND/DISY 121 (+13)
SYRIZA 70 (+18)
PASOK 37 (-4)
ANEL 19 (-14)
DIMAR 17 (-2)
KKE 14 (-12)
XA 13 (-8)
DX/DRASI-FS 9 (+9)

Note that a grand pro-austerity coalition, ND/PASOK/DISY/DX/DRASI-FS, would have 167 seats and therefore a rather comfortable majority. The Grexit...is averted. However, if we shift a single seat from ND to SYRIZA...SYRIZA/DIMAR would have only 138 seats, and they would have to recruit either KKE (doubtful), or more likely, ANEL for a grand anti-austerity coalition...I'm not sure to what extent SYRIZA/ANEL/DIMAR would really work though.

[Lasitten]

athensnews.gr/portal/8/56094

Way to go MP from to Golden Dawn attacks two other from SYRIZA and KKE.

[Vasall des Midas]

During a talkshow. They had remarked about the fact that he's facing trial for an armed robbery. He fled the studio afterwards... and had his bail revoked as a result of the incident and is currently at large.

Finally a party that can speak for the nonrespectable working class.

[batmacumba]

The original German word is Lumpenproletariat.

[Vasall des Midas]

The original German word is Lumpenproletariat.

While also fitting here, it's not a term in my lexicon and not precisely what I meant.

[Seattle]

Pretty ridiculous actions, but completely expected from him. Poor KKE woman, getting beat up.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Pretty ridiculous actions, but completely expected from him. Poor KKE woman, getting beat up.

Well, she is not exactly an innocent bystander. Kanelli is our communist equivalent of Steve King and Michele Bachmann.

[Boris]

As a Greek I'll tell you some facts about the aftermath.The beating and cursing continued while there was a commercial break.The man was chased in the studio by cameramen and the floor manager and they managed to lock him in a room where he hid until the police came.He then busted the door open and run away from the studio in the nearby fields

I wish they had left the cameras running! this would have been comical to watch

[lilTommy]

Pretty ridiculous actions, but completely expected from him. Poor KKE woman, getting beat up.

Well, she is not exactly an innocent bystander. Kanelli is our communist equivalent of Steve King and Michele Bachmann.

... And every time i see Michele Bachmann i DO want to punch her in the face...

Kanelli did after all throw some paper at him, and in good old fashioned neo-nazi style the best response is to be heavy handed... literally.

[Swedish Cheese]

Surley this  must mean the end to Golden Dawn's time in parliament? No party can have a sitting MP do this on live TV right before an election and survive, not even in the special circumstances of this Greek election.

It's bad when you make me feel sympathetic to a communist. Especially when the communist is apperently a left-wing Michelle Bachmann. 

[You kip if you want to...]

He punches like a woman as well.

[Seattle]

Pretty ridiculous actions, but completely expected from him. Poor KKE woman, getting beat up.

Well, she is not exactly an innocent bystander. Kanelli is our communist equivalent of Steve King and Michele Bachmann.

Oh, I know. But physical violence never has a place in the arena of politics.

[wormyguy]

So they have The Jerry Springer Show in Greece?

[Peter the Lefty]

Surley this  must mean the end to Golden Dawn's time in parliament?

Well, the thing is, if a person is actually a horrible enough human being to find it in themselves to vote for a neo-nazi party, than would they actually be bothered by something like this?

[Formerly Californian Tony]

Surley this  must mean the end to Golden Dawn's time in parliament?

Well, the thing is, if a person is actually a horrible enough human being to find it in themselves to vote for a neo-nazi party, than would they actually be bothered by something like this?

Sadly, I think the kind of people who vote for XA are just deluded idiots who have no idea what kind of party they are voting for. A share of them probably don't even know what a nazi is...

[ObserverIE]

Not sure if this is old news, disinformation, or both, but from today's Irish Times:

A moratorium on the publication of opinion polls has been in place since June 1st but pollsters have been conducting surveys privately on behalf of the parties since then.

According to the findings of one pollster, who spoke to this newspaper on condition of anonymity, the Radical Left Coalition (Syriza) is in first place and could comfortably form a government with the moderate Democratic Left party without requiring the support of socialist Pasok.

Another informed source has tentatively suggested that Syriza, which says it will cancel the existing memorandum and seek to renegotiate the country’s legitimate loan commitments, may even be in a position to form a majority government on its own.

[ModerateCoward]

Surley this  must mean the end to Golden Dawn's time in parliament?

Well, the thing is, if a person is actually a horrible enough human being to find it in themselves to vote for a neo-nazi party, than would they actually be bothered by something like this?

Sadly, I think the kind of people who vote for XA are just deluded idiots who have no idea what kind of party they are voting for. A share of them probably don't even know what a nazi is...

Nah they know what a Nazi is, they just deny what they have done.

[© Tweed the Younger]

As a Greek I'll tell you some facts about the aftermath.The beating and cursing continued while there was a commercial break.The man was chased in the studio by cameramen and the floor manager and they managed to lock him in a room where he hid until the police came.He then busted the door open and run away from the studio in the nearby fields

I wish they had left the cameras running! this would have been comical to watch

problem is half of cops voted XD last turnaround.  I saw something two days ago that says XD is planning to forcibly evict illegal immigrants from hospitals.

[Boris]

I don't think they mention anything about 'illegal:'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/12/golden-dawn-hospital-immigrants-greece?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Of course, the problem with going around and beating up/murdering everyone who isn't white is that eventually they're going to do it to another EU national or an American. Which would then decimate the Greek tourism industry. But I suppose most XA members probably have some form of mental illness and therefore are incapable of reaching such conclusions.

[Speaker Dereich]

As a Greek I'll tell you some facts about the aftermath.The beating and cursing continued while there was a commercial break.The man was chased in the studio by cameramen and the floor manager and they managed to lock him in a room where he hid until the police came.He then busted the door open and run away from the studio in the nearby fields

I wish they had left the cameras running! this would have been comical to watch

problem is half of cops voted XD last turnaround.  I saw something two days ago that says XD is planning to forcibly evict illegal immigrants from hospitals.

Ok, can we call XD Golden Dawn? I had to reread your post 2 or 3 times before I realized you weren't super excited that cops voted. Having a party abbreviation that's the same as an emote is super annoying.