Anti-Conscription Amendment [Rejected]

[Marokai]

Anti-Conscription Amendment

Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen.

(Slot: PPT's Discretion)

Sponsor: Napoleon Scott

[Senator Napoleon]

Introduced this with a shred of hope that this Senate doesn't embarrass itself by the time it reaches the people.

[TJ in Wisco]

I will vote against this unless it includes an exception for a direct attack on Atlasian soil, and the conscription to be done by the federal government and not be regions because regional conscription for a federal army makes no sense.

I propose the following amendment:

Anti-Conscription Amendment

The Republic of Atlasia shall not conscript or enforce conscription of any citizen unless there is a direct attack on Atlasian soil by legitimate foreign governments. In the event of such an attack, conscription must only be used on citizens at least eighteen years of age, and must allow exemptions for conscientious objectors, the infirm or otherwise disabled, those already enrolled in a higher education institution at the time conscription begins, or heads of single parent households.

[Senator Napoleon]

The anti-life amendment is unfriendly, of course.

[Big Wiggly Style]

I oppose conscription 100%. Period.

[Marokai]

We're now voting on the following amendment, as Napoleon has objected. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

Anti-Conscription Amendment

The Republic of Atlasia shall not conscript or enforce conscription of any citizen unless there is a direct attack on Atlasian soil by legitimate foreign governments. In the event of such an attack, conscription must only be used on citizens at least eighteen years of age, and must allow exemptions for conscientious objectors, the infirm or otherwise disabled, those already enrolled in a higher education institution at the time conscription begins, or heads of single parent households.

Nay.

[Big Wiggly Style]

NAY

[Senator Napoleon]

Nay

[TJ in Wisco]

Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...

[Senator Napoleon]

Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...

If no one wants to defend the nation, then we deserve to get beat.

[Big Wiggly Style]

Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...

If no one wants to defend the nation, then we deserve to get beat.

^^^^^ yesyesyes this.

[Snowguy716]

Why do I have this incredible sense of deja vu at the moment? 

[Junkie]

Introduced this with a shred of hope that this Senate doesn't embarrass itself by the time it reaches the people.

I am not sure that I understand this comment.  If you are stating that opposing this amendment is an embarrassment, and I assume you mean intellectually embarrassing, then I guess I am willing to accept the embarrassment.  Here is why I am against the proposed constitutional amendment:

Starting off with an aside.  Currently reading a book about the demise of moderate/progressive republicans from 1960-1980.  Amazingly good so far.  One point the book brings out is that in 1967, the Ripon Society (mainly moderates at the time) wrote a book calling for the end of the draft.  Its basis was the deteriorating effect it had on the military in combat units.  They found common ground with the Young Americans for Freedom (mainly conservatives and libertarians) who believed that conscription is a form of slavery.

They were pitted against Democrats, the most vocal of which was Teddy Kennedy, who believed that a fully volunteer army (especially in a time of war) would result in only the most uneducated, poorest citizens with a disproportionate amount of minorities being in the service. 

I see validity in all the arguments, although, I would point out that since then the volunteer army has not become what Kennedy feared.  In fact, it appears that we have created a seperate society of military members, who all have family members who serve, while the proportion of non-service members that have a serving relative has gone way down.  In effect, the military is becoming increasingly disconnected from the people they serve to protect.  Not really a good thing.

However, my concern is that conscription in time of war will be necessary.  We should not have a peacetime draft, but in times of declared war, with Senate approval, conscription should be allowed.

Thus as to the amendment:

Aye

[Senator Napoleon]

The comment was regarding what I consider to be one of the most embarrassing and flat out stupid time-wasting votes as a Senate that would have easily passed a normal anti-conscription amendment compromised with itself for no reason at all and forwarded a hideous mess for a popular vote that went down in flames. That was part of a string of poorly worded failed amendments where I managed to position myself as the lone voice of reason!

[Senator Ben]

I urge the Senate to defeat the Amendment.  Conscription is not pretty, nor do I support it, but it is a tool that we should have, if the need arises.

[Secretary Polnut]

I obviously don't support a peacetime draft - but to put it in the Constitution means that's kind of it. I understand the 'issues' people have with conscription and generally I'm a very strong opponent in general of it... however

It should be an option, for example, if the nation itself is under direct attack by the armed forces of another sovereign state.

So, I do support the amendment

AYE.

[Junkie]

Damn glad your here polnut.  We may not agree on everything, but I value your contributions.

[crypto-fascist superhero]

I urge the Senate to defeat the Amendment.  Conscription is not pretty, nor do I support it, but it is a tool that we should have, if the need arises.

You first.

[Marokai]

I change my vote on the amendment to Aye.

[Big Wiggly Style]

Senators, think for a moment about what exactly is currently being debated...a bill that forces citizens into military service. That's outrageous. There is no excuse for the Federal Government to force any citizen to do anything, it's immoral. The Government is supposed to protect us, not the other way around. Therefore, unless we strongly reconsider what we are doing, I propose the following amendment:

Anti-Conscription Amendment

The Republic of Atlasia shall not conscript or enforce conscription of any citizen unless there is a direct attack on Atlasian soil by legitimate foreign governments. In the event of such an attack, The President, Vice President, all Cabinet members and all Senators shall be the first citizens required to serve. After all of the above are conscripted, the Government then shall require members of local Governments to serve next.

Of course I don't intend for this amendment to be voted on or actually taken seriously, but think about it. If we are going to force our own citizens into military service, our asses are first.

[Marokai]

I change my vote on the amendment to Aye.

Grr.. The way TJ's amendment is worded isn't exactly what I would like. I hate doing this, but change my vote to Abstain. Attack on our soil could be interpreted to mean many things.

[Secretary Polnut]

I change my vote on the amendment to Aye.

Grr.. The way TJ's amendment is worded isn't exactly what I would like. I hate doing this, but change my vote to Abstain. Attack on our soil could be interpreted to mean many things.

Hmmm, I'm re-reading it too... the term is too broad.

I would support an amendment which is clearly specific and states an attack by the armed forces of another sovereign state on the Atlasian mainland. But also safeguards such as minimum proportion of the armed forces that can be conscripted and also specify their roles.

But to completely remove the option for the most extreme of circumstances is honestly a little too emotional and its not like people are going to be immediately rounded up and shipped off to some manufactured war.

If you make the conditions incredibly strict... I still have an issue with conscription but I don't believe a total ban belongs in the Constitution.

[Senator Ben]

You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.

[Big Wiggly Style]

You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.

Absolutely not. If we are to strip liberty, we ought to be the first to be stripped.

[Secretary Polnut]

You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.

Absolutely not. If we are to strip liberty, we ought to be the first to be stripped.

Again... being a touch melodramatic there me thinks...