A question for those of right wing beliefs

[dialectical fetishist]

Every year, benefit fraud costs the British economy approximately £1bn

In that same year, tax evasion by the rich who choose not to pay British taxes cost £30bn.

The right wing media, the Conservative Party and many of their supporters want you to believe that benefit cheats are the least fair in the land and that they are the biggest leech on our society. Their rich friends, meanwhile, should pay low taxes which they then choose to evade anyway and cost us thirtyfold more.

So who's right? The facts or the Conservative Party?

[Grumps]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

[dialectical fetishist]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

[Grumps]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

Agreed.  I'm too lazy to look up the numbers here but I'd guess both are staggering, and probably opposite - benefit cheating outweighing tax cheating.......

Of course the oppresively high tax rate is probably largely to blame in the U.K., but it's not an excuse for fraud.

[dialectical fetishist]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

Agreed.  I'm too lazy to look up the numbers here but I'd guess both are staggering, and probably opposite - benefit cheating outweighing tax cheating.......

Of course the oppresively high tax rate is probably largely to blame in the U.K., but it's not an excuse for fraud.

Not really. The reason so much tax evasion goes on is because of economic deregulation that the Tories decided to set out on in the 1980s. We had a 95% top rate for much of our post-war history and there wasn't as much tax evasion then (it was a much fairer rate than 50% too)

[King]

If you find the right's answers to be unsatisfactory just have a mod sticky this thread, Winston, and you can answer yourself properly in a few months.

[dialectical fetishist]

If you find the right's answers to be unsatisfactory just have a mod sticky this thread, Winston, and you can answer yourself properly in a few months.

Well done, no-one has ever made a joke about me having changed my mind over something before

[King]

If you find the right's answers to be unsatisfactory just have a mod sticky this thread, Winston, and you can answer yourself properly in a few months.

Well done, no-one has ever made a joke about me having changed my mind over something before

You'll soon come to see that others have made this joke.

[dialectical fetishist]

If you find the right's answers to be unsatisfactory just have a mod sticky this thread, Winston, and you can answer yourself properly in a few months.

Well done, no-one has ever made a joke about me having changed my mind over something before

Quite. And it wasn't really funny the first time.

You'll soon come to see that others have made this joke.

[Gustaf]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

Agreed.  I'm too lazy to look up the numbers here but I'd guess both are staggering, and probably opposite - benefit cheating outweighing tax cheating.......

Of course the oppresively high tax rate is probably largely to blame in the U.K., but it's not an excuse for fraud.

Not really. The reason so much tax evasion goes on is because of economic deregulation that the Tories decided to set out on in the 1980s. We had a 95% top rate for much of our post-war history and there wasn't as much tax evasion then (it was a much fairer rate than 50% too)

lol

That is definitely not true for any other country I've ever heard about. It doesn't make much sense either.

Anyway, apart from the fact that tax avoidance isn't really illegal, how are you going to stop it exactly? What's your solution?

[Snowguy716]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

Agreed.  I'm too lazy to look up the numbers here but I'd guess both are staggering, and probably opposite - benefit cheating outweighing tax cheating.......

Of course the oppresively high tax rate is probably largely to blame in the U.K., but it's not an excuse for fraud.

Not really. The reason so much tax evasion goes on is because of economic deregulation that the Tories decided to set out on in the 1980s. We had a 95% top rate for much of our post-war history and there wasn't as much tax evasion then (it was a much fairer rate than 50% too)

lol

That is definitely not true for any other country I've ever heard about. It doesn't make much sense either.

Anyway, apart from the fact that tax avoidance isn't really illegal, how are you going to stop it exactly? What's your solution?

Every tax evader gets a date with Gustaf?    People'll be linin' up to pay then they will!

[Gustaf]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

Agreed.  I'm too lazy to look up the numbers here but I'd guess both are staggering, and probably opposite - benefit cheating outweighing tax cheating.......

Of course the oppresively high tax rate is probably largely to blame in the U.K., but it's not an excuse for fraud.

Not really. The reason so much tax evasion goes on is because of economic deregulation that the Tories decided to set out on in the 1980s. We had a 95% top rate for much of our post-war history and there wasn't as much tax evasion then (it was a much fairer rate than 50% too)

lol

That is definitely not true for any other country I've ever heard about. It doesn't make much sense either.

Anyway, apart from the fact that tax avoidance isn't really illegal, how are you going to stop it exactly? What's your solution?

Every tax evader gets a date with Gustaf?    People'll be linin' up to pay then they will!

That's...a new form of personal attack. I seem to inspire some of the forum's weirdest insults. 

(Given that they're all creepy middle-aged men I'd sure hope they wouldn't want to date me)

[shua]

Both are wrong, but where did you get the fraud number.  It seems dramatically low.  Both numbers do actually.

http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud/a378274

Obviously I don't agree morally with either benefit cheating or tax evading. But it's something to think about, especially given the British press obsession with welfare cheats.

Agreed.  I'm too lazy to look up the numbers here but I'd guess both are staggering, and probably opposite - benefit cheating outweighing tax cheating.......

Of course the oppresively high tax rate is probably largely to blame in the U.K., but it's not an excuse for fraud.

Not really. The reason so much tax evasion goes on is because of economic deregulation that the Tories decided to set out on in the 1980s. We had a 95% top rate for much of our post-war history and there wasn't as much tax evasion then (it was a much fairer rate than 50% too)

when you use the term "tax evasion" I assume you are referring to something that is illegal, correct? if that is the case, deregulation would not have increased tax evasion, though it may have made some things that were considered tax evasion at one point to no longer be considered as such.

and if you are referring to legal "tax avoidance," then of course that is in a different category from fraud.

[You kip if you want to...]

Every year, benefit fraud costs the British economy approximately £1bn

In that same year, tax evasion by the rich who choose not to pay British taxes cost £30bn.

The right wing media, the Conservative Party and many of their supporters want you to believe that benefit cheats are the least fair in the land and that they are the biggest leech on our society. Their rich friends, meanwhile, should pay low taxes which they then choose to evade anyway and cost us thirtyfold more.

So who's right? The facts or the Conservative Party?

Ask Nick Clegg.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Both numbers are most likely far higher.


Lower rates, do not lead to tax evasion by itself. Its simply, and patently ridiculous.


And as Gustaf asked, How would you stop this?


Raising the rate back to 95% won't magically make it happen, in fact it will be much worse with a higher rate.

You can riddle your tax code with penalties, fines, and punishments for this, but that only serves to make the tax code more complex encouraging those who can to avoid it and those who can't to make mistakes. Ironically the middle and working class takes the hit here.

Back in 2007, the Democrats tried to focus on the "tax gap"  as a way to fund their wish list, and to facilitate class warfare rhetoric in the 2008 election. Then when it came down to actually solving the problem, those dumbos didn't have the first clue how to fix the problem that didn't involve spending large sums on enforcement (potentially more then could be realistically gained) or adding complexity to an already ridiculously complex tax code (which could lead to a larger "tax gap"). The hearings on it were deliciously amusing or about as amusing as a hearing on C-SPAN could be, and the reason was that they didn't have a clue.

I know what the solution is, or rather the most realistic solution that will generate the most revenue and not be counterproductive as there is no 100% solution. I think Gustaf knows what the "best" solution to the tax gap is, as well. And it has a fairly good record of success when tried, but of course it is difficult to acheive because the status quo is much preferred by special interests. The trouble for you is that you can't do this and at the same time use the tax code as a tool for the advancement of an anti-production, anti-wealth bias.   You can maintain some level of progressivism in the rates, of course, but not the level you desire. 

[opebo]

Tax evasion is mostly due to lack of enforcement.  We should increase the IRS budget ten-fold and audit all rich people every year.

[InsaneTrollLogic]

...I think the way to deal with tax evasion is quite easy- Nothing. Spend the money as if it were comming in and when there is a deficit due to the lost revenue that was hidden away, simply print the money to make up the deficit. The resulting inflation will reduce the buying power of the evaders back to where it would be had they not evaded. Essentially, that would take out the value of evading in the first place....and potentially even lower their buying power as inflation prices out their consumers and thus their source of income. It appears that the natural consequences of one's behavior are the best forms of punishment available.

[Χahar]

...I think the way to deal with tax evasion is quite easy- Nothing. Spend the money as if it were comming in and when there is a deficit due to the lost revenue that was hidden away, simply print the money to make up the deficit. The resulting inflation will reduce the buying power of the evaders back to where it would be had they not evaded. Essentially, that would take out the value of evading in the first place....and potentially even lower their buying power as inflation prices out their consumers and thus their source of income. It appears that the natural consequences of one's behavior are the best forms of punishment available.

It would also hurt people who did pay their taxes, thereby providing no reason not to evade.

[InsaneTrollLogic]

Yes. That would be a problem, but it would generally take shape as people getting laid off from work. Perhaps if there were more ways of throwing the costs back on the evader using ancillary policy, it would deter them. The point to make is that they cannot shirk their responsibilites as leaders in our society and our economy. If you want the daddy shoes, you gotta man up and wear 'em.

[J. J.]

Every year, benefit fraud costs the British economy approximately £1bn

In that same year, tax evasion by the rich who choose not to pay British taxes cost £30bn.

The right wing media, the Conservative Party and many of their supporters want you to believe that benefit cheats are the least fair in the land and that they are the biggest leech on our society. Their rich friends, meanwhile, should pay low taxes which they then choose to evade anyway and cost us thirtyfold more.

So who's right? The facts or the Conservative Party?

I think one difference is that tax evasion can be more passive; you have to set out to commit fraud (generally) to get benefits.

[Guderian]

People who commit benefit fraud are cheating the system in order to gain more wealth provided by their betters than what we as a society agree upon. People who practice legal tax avoidance are simply saving as much as wealth they accrued as legally possible.

[The Artist Formerly Known As and Now Again Known As Ogis]

People who commit benefit fraud are cheating the system in order to gain more wealth provided by their betters than what we as a society agree upon. People who practice legal tax avoidance are simply saving as much as wealth they accrued as legally possible.

Their betters?

[Guderian]

People who commit benefit fraud are cheating the system in order to gain more wealth provided by their betters than what we as a society agree upon. People who practice legal tax avoidance are simply saving as much as wealth they accrued as legally possible.

Their betters?

More productive = better, at least in this sense.

[freefair]

Both are very very wrong, but Benefit fraud is worse as it causes hatred among the general populace and seems far more unfair. Also, benefit fraud money goes to people who often actively cause trouble. People who evade a lot of tax are still paying a lot if tax and net contributing to the economy by making money, people are just a drain on the state.
I hesitate to add that actually the Sun might not totally support the total ending of Benefit fraud as loads of spongers buy Sky. :-P
Itx like the old joke, what D'ya call the box at the end of a Satellite Dish? A Council house.
I should know, I grew up in a 2 bed terraced house on an estate in the Black Country.