Protesters rally over Florida teen's death, demand arrest

[krazen1211]

Duty-to-retreat tradition is designed to do the same thing.

It's also hard to describe somebody who was being stalked as a 'perpetrator'.

Well, whether the law is correctly applied to this situation will surely be determined by investigation.

But the concept of SYG dates back hundreds of years...hence of course the term castle doctrine.

Duty to retreat of course puts the attacker at an advantage as he/she has the option of escalating force.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Right. It's SYG in a public place that was new about this law, and part of what will be adjudicated, I imagine, as well as whether or not Zimmerman was, in fact, acting in self-defense as he claims.

Duty to retreat's other purpose is, of course, to protect the public from rumbles and gunfights. It can be argued whether or not it does so.

[J. J.]

Martin was 6' 3"...and 140 lbs.  That's incredibly scrawny for that height (I weigh 135 and I'm a full 8 inches shorter than Martin, and I'm pretty scrawny).  Zimmerman, despite being shorter, weighs close to 100 lbs more than Martin.  And you expect me to believe that Martin could beat Zimmerman up and knock him to the ground easily?  With that kind of weight disparity and what it implies about Martin's physique?

Do I think a young 140 lbs. man could jump a man 100 lbs. heavier from behind, at night?  Sure.

[Beet]

Apparently there have been conflicting reports of what Zimmerman's account is. I'm not sure if this is because Zimmerman himself was inconsistent or if the facts that were leaked to the media simply have been misleading. But the latest I have read is not that Zimmermain claims he was jumped from behind... he claims that Martin walked up to him from behind and asked him if he had a problem with him, or something to that effect. Martin's girlfriend's story would fit into this more latter account. If they exchanged words, then no one was jumped from behind.

[J. J.]

Apparently there have been conflicting reports of what Zimmerman's account is. I'm not sure if this is because Zimmerman himself was inconsistent or if the facts that were leaked to the media simply have been misleading. But the latest I have read is not that Zimmermain claims he was jumped from behind... he claims that Martin walked up to him from behind and asked him if he had a problem with him, or something to that effect. Martin's girlfriend's story would fit into this more latter account. If they exchanged words, then no one was jumped from behind.

Jumped was my characterization, but an attack that Zimmerman would be expecting, from behind, could be the case as well.  I am somewhat troubled by the wound on the back of Zimmerman's head.

[The Mikado]

Apparently there have been conflicting reports of what Zimmerman's account is. I'm not sure if this is because Zimmerman himself was inconsistent or if the facts that were leaked to the media simply have been misleading. But the latest I have read is not that Zimmermain claims he was jumped from behind... he claims that Martin walked up to him from behind and asked him if he had a problem with him, or something to that effect. Martin's girlfriend's story would fit into this more latter account. If they exchanged words, then no one was jumped from behind.

Jumped was my characterization, but an attack that Zimmerman would be expecting, from behind, could be the case as well.  I am somewhat troubled by the wound on the back of Zimmerman's head.

Wouldn't it fit with the broken nose if Martin punched him in the face, knocking him over so his head hit the pavement?  Followed by Zimmerman firing?  Which would still be voluntary manslaughter because he's using lethal force in "self-defense" in a situation where his life isn't actually in danger.

EDIT: especially because Zimmerman was previously following Martin around, as both the 911 call and the story Martin's girlfriend says show.  Zimmerman's actions provoked a confrontation that led to Zimmerman getting knocked over and shooting Martin, is my current impression. 

[J. J.]

Wouldn't it fit with the broken nose if Martin punched him in the face, knocking him over so his head hit the pavement?  Followed by Zimmerman firing?  

Suppose Zimmerman broke it when he hit the ground, hypothetically?  There are a lot of possibilities.

Which would still be voluntary manslaughter because he's using lethal force in "self-defense" in a situation where his life isn't actually in danger.

EDIT: especially because Zimmerman was previously following Martin around, as both the 911 call and the story Martin's girlfriend says show.  Zimmerman's actions provoked a confrontation that led to Zimmerman getting knocked over and shooting Martin, is my current impression. 

Well, no, because he had a belief that his life was endangered, under your scenario.  Zimmerman's action might be provocative, but they didn't justify Martin turning, approaching and punching him.

[Invisible Obama]

Zimmerman's story didn't add up and one investigator wanted to charge him the night of the shooting.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3JEgPkU6So

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

Zimmerman, 28, claimed he shot Martin, 17, in self defense.

[Badger]

The greatest criminal here is the FL legislature for passing such an idiotic law and opening the floodgates of bogus "self-defense" claims. Self-defense was permissable before, but this law is the definition of "unintended consequences".

[Beet]

The greatest criminal here is the FL legislature for passing such an idiotic law and opening the floodgates of bogus "self-defense" claims. Self-defense was permissable before, but this law is the definition of "unintended consequences".

It's not just Florida. Although Florida was the first to enact it and it's been in effect for the longest there, between 17 and 24 states already have this enacted (depending on which report you listen to). If your state doesn't already have it, there's almost certainly someone trying to push it through. In Ohio, an effort is underway to enact this law and lobbyists were campaigning for it today. It's worth nothing that in Florida it was enacted over the objections of law enforcement and prosecutors, who feared exactly what is now happening.

[jimrtex]

Whereas we, of course, trust the judgment of wannabe cops with restraining orders against them from previous violent incidents who habitually make phone calls to the police about trivial sh**t.

46 phone calls over 8 years is not all that many.

[jimrtex]

How could Zimmerman be "standing his ground" in "self-defense" when he went off in pursuit of an unarmed teenager -- a decision which went against both what the 911 dispatcher told him and general neighborhood watch protocol?  In fact, neighborhood watch is not supposed to carry firearms.  This isn't even a case where Zimmerman saw Martin on his property.  He just decided he looked "suspicious" and now the result is a dead unarmed teenager.

He was not on a neighborhood watch, he was in his car when he saw Martin and called the police.  He had a CHL, and if you are going to carry, it makes sense to always carry.

He did not pursue Martin.  After Martin started running, he apparently was driving along a street, and the dispatcher asked if he were following Martin.  He said yes, the dispatcher said that "we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman responded "OK".

The phone call lasted another 1-1/2 minutes.  So either Zimmerman had stopped; the dispatcher thought he had stopped; or the dispatcher thought it wasn't that important.

He later got out of his car.

First off, whether Zimmerman was on official watch duty at the moment or not is not an excuse to break accepted neighborhood watch protocol.  He pursued a suspect with his gun, neither of which he should have done.  As a member of the neighborhood watch he should have been well aware of the proper procedure.  He is not a law enforcement officer.  

You claimed that Zimmerman should not have been carrying a gun since he was on neighborhood watch.  But he wasn't on neighborhood watch.  He was going to the store.  I seriously doubt that people involved in neighborhood watch are told not to report strange or suspicious activity that they observe when going to work or driving.

He did not pursue Martin.  It is your fantasy that the 250 pound 28 YO 5'9 guy outran the 6'0 160 pound 17 YO until he got close enough to shoot him at close range.

He saw someone who appeared to be walking about, just looking at houses, who fit the description of those who had committed burglaries in the area.  he called the police.  He gave them a description.  He said that Martin had started to run.

He was in his truck and he started to follow.  If the engine was running, he might just have put the truck into gear and been creeping along at 5 MPH.  The dispatcher somehow figured this out.  Maybe he can figure it out from the phone cells, maybe he could hear the engine running.  Maybe he was just intuitive.

The dispatch asked Zimmerman if he were following Martin.  Zimmerman immediately said "yeah", and when the dispatcher reminded that "we don't need you to do that".  Zimmerman immediately said "OK".

He did not pursue after being told not to.  To the contrary, he immediately acknowledged the recommendation.   The phone call continued for another 1-1/2, and there is no evidence that Martin remained in sight.

Either:

(1) Zimmerman stopped;

(2) Zimmerman continued to follow Martin and effectively fooled the dispatcher;

(3) Zimmerman continued to follow, the dispatcher knew it, but decided it was hopeless to try to get Zimmerman to stop;

(4) Zimmerman continued to follow, the dispatcher knew it, and wanted Zimmerman to do it.  The "order" to stop, was just to establish plausible deniability.

I vote for (1).  What about yourself.

Zimmerman's actions were against guidelines followed by countless volunteer programs across the United States, according to the National Sheriffs' Association, a nonprofit which officially launched the Neighborhood Watch Program in 1972.

In a recent statement, Aaron D. Kennard, the association's executive director, referred to Zimmerman as a "self-appointed neighborhood watchman" who "significantly contradicts the principles" of watch programs.

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch.

Kennard said the National Sheriff's Association does not have a record of the group registering as a Neighhborhood Watch Program (proper noun).  Kennard was acting as bureaucrat protecting his organization's trademarks.

The Sanford Police Department brochure:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/flyers/Neighborhood_Watch_english.pdf

doesn't say anything about registering with the Neighborhood Watch Program.  Sanford police did meet with the neighborhood watch group in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Your statement that he did not pursue Martin is false.  Per the 911 tapes, he admitted he was in pursuit of Martin (the dispatcher asked if he was following Martin and he said "yeah").  When the 911 dispatcher told him to stop he said "okay" but I am skeptical that he actually stopped -- the continued sound of his heavy breathing suggests that wasn't the case.  And if he was not pursuing Martin, why did he get out of his car?  Furthermore, Zimmerman's account of events is contradicted by Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him at the time the shooting occurred:

"Pursue" is not the same as "follow".

The tape confirms that Zimmerman at least acknowledged that he was no longer following Martin; rather than the popular belief that he pursued Martin after being directed not to.  Agreed?

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

How did she know Martin was "cornered"?  You realize that this pursuit if carried out over at least 4 minutes was slow as molasses.  Did his girl friend call police after hearing her friend had been chased by a strange person, and then the call was disconnected after she heard shoving.  There is no contemporaneous account of her interpretation of events.

As for your apparent assertion that the Sanford Police conducted a fair investigation, I will respond to that later when I have time.  Needless to say I could not disagree more.

Remember that the two witnesses who were actually outside reported that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

[dead0man]

Of course it is. Shooting to incapacitate is one of the funniest lines told by people who don't have a clue.

This is, in turn, one of the most sickening lines told by bloodthirsty wannabe-badasses, so at least I'm amusing.

He's actually correct.  It's a Hollywood myth, like cars exploding when shot or falling off a cliff.

[Prez Duke]

Apparently his mother has filed to have his name trademarked this morning. I'm beginning to get tired of this case now, especially if the family is out to make money off of it.

[BigSkyBob]

The greatest criminal here is the FL legislature for passing such an idiotic law and opening the floodgates of bogus "self-defense" claims. Self-defense was permissable before, but this law is the definition of "unintended consequences".

This ignores the minor detail that Zimmerman's own attorney stated his defense has nothing to do with the "stand your ground" law. He noted Zimmerman acted in "self-defense."


Folks that don't like that law are abusing the facts in this circumstance to rally against it.

[asexual trans victimologist]

Of course it is. Shooting to incapacitate is one of the funniest lines told by people who don't have a clue.

This is, in turn, one of the most sickening lines told by bloodthirsty wannabe-badasses, so at least I'm amusing.

He's actually correct.  It's a Hollywood myth, like cars exploding when shot or falling off a cliff.

Well, clearly it's why you don't shoot.

[Beet]

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.

[Gravis Marketing]

I'm confused. When people here were talking about his bloody face and broken news and hypothesizing that Martin knocked him to the ground and beat the crap out of him, what were they basing it on, if Zimmerman wasn't even bloody in the first place?

[ModerateCoward]

So what we are dealing here is legalization of manslaughter. I am hoping NRA will try to protect Zimmerman.

[jimrtex]

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.

Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

[Ogre Mage]

You claimed that Zimmerman should not have been carrying a gun since he was on neighborhood watch.  But he wasn't on neighborhood watch.  He was going to the store.  I seriously doubt that people involved in neighborhood watch are told not to report strange or suspicious activity that they observe when going to work or driving.

He did not pursue Martin.  It is your fantasy that the 250 pound 28 YO 5'9 guy outran the 6'0 160 pound 17 YO until he got close enough to shoot him at close range.

He saw someone who appeared to be walking about, just looking at houses, who fit the description of those who had committed burglaries in the area.  he called the police.  He gave them a description.  He said that Martin had started to run.

He was in his truck and he started to follow.  If the engine was running, he might just have put the truck into gear and been creeping along at 5 MPH.  The dispatcher somehow figured this out.  Maybe he can figure it out from the phone cells, maybe he could hear the engine running.  Maybe he was just intuitive.

The dispatch asked Zimmerman if he were following Martin.  Zimmerman immediately said "yeah", and when the dispatcher reminded that "we don't need you to do that".  Zimmerman immediately said "OK".

He did not pursue after being told not to.  To the contrary, he immediately acknowledged the recommendation.   The phone call continued for another 1-1/2, and there is no evidence that Martin remained in sight.

"Pursue" is not the same as "follow?"  Whatever.  Well then he was "following" Martin.  And would any of this have happened if he had NOT "followed" Martin? (with a gun)

It is your conjecture that he followed the instructions of the dispatcher to stop looking for Martin.  Many would disagree with you.  Are you really assuming he did just because he "okay."  Hard to believe given that he got out of his car with his gun and the person he was following is now dead.

[Ogre Mage]

Zimmerman's father is now saying that Trayvon Martin threatened to kill his son:

"Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of you're going to die now or you're going to die tonight, something to that effect," Robert Zimmerman told Orlando TV station WOFL. "He continued to beat George. At some point, George pulled his pistol. Did what he did."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Maybe it is just me, but I would wager this story is not true.

[Ogre Mage]

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.

Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

"The injuries that made it sound as though he really should have been on a stretcher are not apparent in this tape at all," said Marcia Clark, the former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial. "He moves freely. He moves fluidly, not like someone who has just been through a beating in any way, shape or form, someone's whose head has been pounded on the pavement as hard as described, someone who's nose was broken and bleeding. That tells you a great deal."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

[dead0man]

Elderly couple abandon their home after address is posted on Twitter as that of George Zimmerman

A school-cafeteria lunch lady and her husband have received hate mail, unwanted visits from reporters and fearful inquiries from neighbors — all because their Sanford address is being disseminated on Twitter as belonging to Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman, her son said late Tuesday.

The woman, 70, who has a heart condition, and her husband, 72, have temporarily moved to a hotel to avoid the spotlight and possible danger, said son Chip Humble of Longwood.

The woman has another son named William George Zimmerman who lived with her in 1995 and still lives in Central Florida. He is no relation to George Zimmerman, 28, who killed 17-year-old Trayvon Feb. 26, sparking national outrage and international interest.

William Zimmerman isn't sure how his mother and stepfather's address became public. He said he used it to register a car, get a drivers license and vote when he lived there briefly after college.

"This is really scary, and I'm concerned for my family," Zimmerman told the Orlando Sentinel Tuesday night. "It's scary because there are people who aren't mentally right and will take this information and run with it."

Zimmerman traced the tweets — which he said have been retweeted by actor-director Spike Lee — to a man in California. Zimmerman has implored the man to stop and said he received this response, "Black power all day. No justice, no peace" and an obscenity.

The retweet remained on Lee's page late Wednesday, but Lee tweeted an apology about 10 p.m. and asked people to leave the wrong Zimmerman's family alone. "Justice in Court," Lee wrote.

"To endanger people who are innocent because people are angry is not the answer," William Zimmerman said. "That's not how we're going to heal. It's not to help the Martin family for someone else to be hurt."

Posting the REAL address would be wrong, posting the WRONG address is much much worse.  Spike Lee should be better than this.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

So apparently a new video is out showing Zimmerman being led in handcuffs out of the police cruiser into the station where he has no bruises or blood anywhere on him that can be seen. No bandages, his shirt is clean and dry, no sign of grass. Yes, the police report says the fire department treated him at the scene, but for a guy who's defenders have been portraying him getting decked onto the ground, and "hammered" for at least a minute possibly much longer while crying for help, he sure doesn't look the least bit scratched.

Watch in the middle of the video when the one cop is putting his jacket in the trunk of the car.  The other cop comes around and is checking the back of his head.

Here's the video itself, for the lazy who don't want to search for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N5OiLQjUcOU#!