NAFTA

[moderate_devil_dog]

Could someone please explain to me the pros and cons of this agreement.  Also, how much does Canada benefit or not benefit from it?

[angus]

As I understand it, the NAFTA folks like it because it removes restrictions on labor and goods/services flow between the three countries of North America, thereby allowing prices and quantities of goods to reach equilibrium levels.  Decreasing bureaucratic costs helps firms maximize profit as well.  The anti-Nafta folks dislike it for exactly the same reasons.  The artificial disequilibrium in the market place ensures higher wages and lower unemployment for US workers.  As well, NAFTA removes some of the leverage the US would have used to encourage greater ecological sensitivity among the Mexicans.  That's a bit of an oversimplification, but it's enough to get you started on your own research, I think.

Look up:  Price Theory, NAFTA, Free trade, International Relations, Mexico, North America, and "Environmental"+"Latin America"

be careful to avoid search terms such as "wage slavery" and such, as you'll get all sorts of left-wing nutjob hits.  trust me, I've tried this.

[Blue Rectangle]

A great Futurama quote:

Fry: You know the worst part about being a slave; you gotta work all day, they won't pay you or let you go.
Leela: That's the only thing about being a slave!

Wage slavery is the same as real slavery, except that wage slavery doesn't force you to work, they do pay you and they will let you go.

[opebo]

As I understand it, the NAFTA folks like it because it removes restrictions on labor and goods/services flow between the three countries of North America, thereby allowing prices and quantities of goods to reach equilibrium levels. 

Just curious, what do you think is the equilibrium wage rate? 

[opebo]

A great Futurama quote:

Fry: You know the worst part about being a slave; you gotta work all day, they won't pay you or let you go.
Leela: That's the only thing about being a slave!

Wage slavery is the same as real slavery, except that wage slavery doesn't force you to work, they do pay you and they will let you go.

On the downside, they are much more likely to let you starve - while still in your prime, while the slavers wouldn't want to lose their investment.  They would starve you later in life. 

Does anyone know what happened to old slaves?  Were they slaughtered?

[angus]

that's cute.

no, I think that's far from the worst part about being a slave, but I can't say that I know for sure.

Most modern slaves are simply turned loose when they are no longer service-worthy (there were at least 20 documented cases in the US last year, and more, per capita, in a number of other OECD countries).  In ancient times (egypt 1500 BC, English colonies 1700s, etc.) I supposed they worked till they couldn't work anymore, then were allowed to die.  Is the question, were they still fed once they no longer contributed to GDP?  I think that varied from society to society.  For example, the Inca were fond of keeping the sex slaves till they were old and ugly, then allowing them free food, on the state, in their retirement.  Not sure about the egyptians, chinese, English, portuguese, etc., and their colonists.  I get the impression that modern slavers are a bit less genial with their slaves.  There has been much written on this.  NGM did a nice story about modern slavery a couple of years ago.  Quite frankly, I'd have figured you were in on it, what your fetish for very young boys and girls. 

[angus]

hey, man seriously, you should watch your ass.  I'm not trying to play moralist.  And in general I have a pretty libertarian attitude about most thing of these things, drugs, prostitution, abortion, gay marriage, slavery, pornography, weapons, etc.  But, the United Nations has made a commitment to, among other things, stamping out those two Great Immoralities in our time, slavery and child prostitution.  Many many times you'll see proper english or german gentlemen being arrested in Rumania, Latin America, etc., in sting operations.  I don't know whether they've made it to Thailand yet, and frankly the odds of being caught in such a sting are relatively small anyway, but you're not likely to find much tolerance anywhere in any jury in the world for such actions.

And, yes, I was still doing 18-year-olds when I was in my 30s.  But that's not what I meant by "very young"  Society draws its lines.  You may not agree with them, but these issues bring out intolerance even in the most tolerant of folks.  I'm sure you've considered all this, though, so I'll let you get back to your predation.

[opebo]

hey, man seriously, you should watch your ass.  I'm not trying to play moralist.  And in general I have a pretty libertarian attitude about most thing of these things, drugs, prostitution, abortion, gay marriage, slavery, pornography, weapons, etc.  But, the United Nations has made a commitment to, among other things, stamping out those two Great Immoralities in our time, slavery and child prostitution.  Many many times you'll see proper english or german gentlemen being arrested in Rumania, Latin America, etc., in sting operations.  I don't know whether they've made it to Thailand yet, and frankly the odds of being caught in such a sting are relatively small anyway, but you're not likely to find much tolerance anywhere in any jury in the world for such actions.

And, yes, I was still doing 18-year-olds when I was in my 30s.  But that's not what I meant by "very young"  Society draws its lines.  You may not agree with them, but these issues bring out intolerance even in the most tolerant of folks.  I'm sure you've considered all this, though, so I'll let you get back to your predation.

Oh, don't worry, I always stay strictly within the lines.  Though of course in the new Police State America, subjects of the regime can be prosecuted for acts commited in other countries, even if those acts are legal in said countries!  So the even if you spend some time with a 45 year old prostitute in Switzerland, you could be jailed for it in the US. 

Your point is well taken about the Forces of Social Control on the march throughout the world.  Freedom is getting rapidly more scarce.  Soon all the young ladies will be forced back in to the sweatshops and robbed of their most pleasant and lucrative opportunity - the sex trade.  It really is tragic the way human potential and hope is being limited by the onward march of plutocratic christianity.

[angus]

Goddamn.  I can't leave anything out anymore.  She's washing clothes like five times a day now.  WTF?  Pair of old gym short I like to wear around the house.  dammit. 

where were we.  yeah.  honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that it should probably be illegal to sell children into sex-slavery.  I realize that's a hypocritical attitude, because it's entirely moralistic, and any argument that can be made against it can also be made against prostitution, in general, and many chemical substances as well (i.e., well the whore is exploited, even though she may not know it.  or, cocaine doesn't just hurt you, it hurts those around you) but still, it just doesn't leave a very good taste in my mouth.  I'll have to admit, though I tend to be sympathetic with folks in general, and tolerant of just about anyone so long as they don't go around mocking religion or Wal-Mart, I don't think I'd be a very sympathetic on a pedophile jury or jury either.  Not that I'm accusing you of anything.  But we're products of our times.  You need to fit into whatever clothes you find sometimes.  Especially when your favorites are in the laundry.

[opebo]

Goddamn.  I can't leave anything out anymore.  She's washing clothes like five times a day now.  WTF?  Pair of old gym short I like to wear around the house.  dammit. 

where were we.  yeah.  honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that it should probably be illegal to sell children into sex-slavery.  I realize that's a hypocritical attitude, because it's entirely moralistic, and any argument that can be made against it can also be made against prostitution, in general, and many chemical substances as well (i.e., well the whore is exploited, even though she may not know it.  or, cocaine doesn't just hurt you, it hurts those around you) but still, it just doesn't leave a very good taste in my mouth.  I'll have to admit, though I tend to be sympathetic with folks in general, and tolerant of just about anyone so long as they don't go around mocking religion or Wal-Mart, I don't think I'd be a very sympathetic on a pedophile jury or jury either.  Not that I'm accusing you of anything.  But we're products of our times.  You need to fit into whatever clothes you find sometimes.  Especially when your favorites are in the laundry.

I'm surprised that you would fall into the tired old game of accusing any patron of prostitution with being a 'pedophile', when there is absolutely no connection between the two.  The fact is that nearly all purchasers of sex have desires no different than the typical male.  It is also a fact that nearly all the sellers of sexual services choose their work - far more eagerly than they would choose to toil in a Wal-Mart sweatshop - because it is easy, amazingly lucrative, and even occasionally fun.  Maybe only once in a while, but one things for sure, working in a factory is never fun. 

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Can the NAFTA proponents explain to me why you can't buy prescription drugs from Canada?

[angus]

Goddamn.  I can't leave anything out anymore.  She's washing clothes like five times a day now.  WTF?  Pair of old gym short I like to wear around the house.  dammit. 

where were we.  yeah.  honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that it should probably be illegal to sell children into sex-slavery.  I realize that's a hypocritical attitude, because it's entirely moralistic, and any argument that can be made against it can also be made against prostitution, in general, and many chemical substances as well (i.e., well the whore is exploited, even though she may not know it.  or, cocaine doesn't just hurt you, it hurts those around you) but still, it just doesn't leave a very good taste in my mouth.  I'll have to admit, though I tend to be sympathetic with folks in general, and tolerant of just about anyone so long as they don't go around mocking religion or Wal-Mart, I don't think I'd be a very sympathetic on a pedophile jury or jury either.  Not that I'm accusing you of anything.  But we're products of our times.  You need to fit into whatever clothes you find sometimes.  Especially when your favorites are in the laundry.

I'm surprised that you would fall into the tired old game of accusing any patron of prostitution with being a 'pedophile', when there is absolutely no connection between the two.  The fact is that nearly all purchasers of sex have desires no different than the typical male.  It is also a fact that nearly all the sellers of sexual services choose their work - far more eagerly than they would choose to toil in a Wal-Mart sweatshop - because it is easy, amazingly lucrative, and even occasionally fun.  Maybe only once in a while, but one things for sure, working in a factory is never fun. 

oh, here we go.  trashing Jesus is one thing.  But Wal-Mart!!??

No, I'm not going to have this argument. 

This thread has taken a life of its own.  From "nafta" to "wage slave" to "what do they do with old slaves" to "modern slavery" to "pedophilia" to "prostitution" to "Wal-Mart"   hmmm.  It's like that old word-association game. 

by the way, I associate slavery -->  child sex  -->  prostitution  -->  Walmart.  But I'm not sure that this implies that the inverse would have been true.  In any of those cases. 

First of all walmart leads to whichs leads to happy which leads to sex which ...

oh, yeah.  I guess you're right. 

[opebo]

oh, here we go.  trashing Jesus is one thing.  But Wal-Mart!!??

I'm not really trashing Wal-Mart.  I admit I personally have no use for the place.  But I think I can say with confidence that Wal-Mart jobs - whether working in the stores in America, or the factories in Asia where the goods are made - are far inferior to the profession of prostitute, both in pay and in quality of life.