Israel-Gaza war

[Meclazine for Israel]

Some alliances change. Others remain the same.

Naked Gun - Intro Scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzGmVUFDomc

I could not help but notice the alliance here between Iran, Palestine, Russia and their desire to fight the US infidels.

[Hnv1]

Intensive battles over night. IDF cracking down on the remaining Hamas strongholds in Eastern Gaza City and Jabalia. The city will completely fall by Saturday I suppose.

Clashes north of Khan Younis. It seems the goal is to reach the entry points to the tunnel complex Sinwar, Deif, and Issa are hiding in.

[CumbrianLefty]

It is just too simplistic to say "young zoomers will grow out of not supporting Israel". The reality is that many people started having a more critical attitude to Israel and Zionism back in the 1980s, and that fundamental shift has not changed despite the expected oscillations in public opinion.

"Israel right or wrong" *is* very much the preserve of boomers and religious fundamentalists now.

[windjammer]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

There are few things more condescending than a know-it-all boomer looking down on younger generations.

I'm not a boomer, I'm 28 years old haha.
 

[windjammer]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

That's not really the issue. Plenty of young leftists (including those on this forum) proudly sport Hamas-friendly rhetoric without explicitly condoning them. I am aware of the large pro-Israel bias in right-leaning media, but the gap is incredible. The current war is perhaps the most scrutinized military campaign in human history, and is fought between the IDF, the morally gray though legitimate military of a morally gray but still legitimate country, fighting absolute monsters that actually enjoy sadistically raping, mutilating, parading and disgracing dead bodies, and whose most oppressed victims are actually the population of Gaza.

The left-leaning media will outright portray unfolding events in a false light. Even if not explicitly condoning Hamas, turning a blind eye just to paint Israel as the aggressor is irresponsible at best, and willingly supportive of antisemitic terrorism at worst. This is exactly the type of PR stunts Hamas want to pull off in the West.

The UN Women took 8 WEEKS to officially recognize that rape has occurred on October 7th, when there were live streams by Hamas of teens with bloody crotches on the day it happened. I mean, what the actual f@ck. The hypocrisy is sickening.

How much worse it is when the youth during the last century was praising Polpot or Mao?

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

That's not really the issue. Plenty of young leftists (including those on this forum) proudly sport Hamas-friendly rhetoric without explicitly condoning them. I am aware of the large pro-Israel bias in right-leaning media, but the gap is incredible. The current war is perhaps the most scrutinized military campaign in human history, and is fought between the IDF, the morally gray though legitimate military of a morally gray but still legitimate country, fighting absolute monsters that actually enjoy sadistically raping, mutilating, parading and disgracing dead bodies, and whose most oppressed victims are actually the population of Gaza.

The left-leaning media will outright portray unfolding events in a false light. Even if not explicitly condoning Hamas, turning a blind eye just to paint Israel as the aggressor is irresponsible at best, and willingly supportive of antisemitic terrorism at worst. This is exactly the type of PR stunts Hamas want to pull off in the West.

The UN Women took 8 WEEKS to officially recognize that rape has occurred on October 7th, when there were live streams by Hamas of teens with bloody crotches on the day it happened. I mean, what the actual f@ck. The hypocrisy is sickening.

How much worse it is when the youth during the last century was praising Polpot or Mao?

At least then there was no videos or lots of photos easily accessible that could maybe give a supporter plausible deniability.

[Horus]

Austin not sounding confident in Israel here. He's been a very solid defense secretary, not a warmonger at all and a fairly logical guy.

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1731405406654918784?t=xx30fr7Z9RHzfkN5DXlI...

[Angel of Death]

If you don't have a plan, then others will follow their own:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/return-to-gush-katif-determined-movement-emerges-to-resettle-israelis-in-gaza/

[Vosem]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

That's not really the issue. Plenty of young leftists (including those on this forum) proudly sport Hamas-friendly rhetoric without explicitly condoning them. I am aware of the large pro-Israel bias in right-leaning media, but the gap is incredible. The current war is perhaps the most scrutinized military campaign in human history, and is fought between the IDF, the morally gray though legitimate military of a morally gray but still legitimate country, fighting absolute monsters that actually enjoy sadistically raping, mutilating, parading and disgracing dead bodies, and whose most oppressed victims are actually the population of Gaza.

The left-leaning media will outright portray unfolding events in a false light. Even if not explicitly condoning Hamas, turning a blind eye just to paint Israel as the aggressor is irresponsible at best, and willingly supportive of antisemitic terrorism at worst. This is exactly the type of PR stunts Hamas want to pull off in the West.

The UN Women took 8 WEEKS to officially recognize that rape has occurred on October 7th, when there were live streams by Hamas of teens with bloody crotches on the day it happened. I mean, what the actual f@ck. The hypocrisy is sickening.

Name some of them.

Be sure to provide specific examples to support your argument.

I mean, you have people here saying that there should be a ceasefire instead of a unilateral surrender by Hamas, or saying that the current bombing campaign is unjustified. You've said that Israel has committed war crimes, even though others have cited actual international law to demonstrate that is not the case. How is that not pro-Hamas rhetoric? We shouldn't censor anybody, of course, but we also shouldn't have a society that fails to condemn rhetoric calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.

The answer to your question is mostly the same as before but a bit more non interventionist, a little more neutrality on Israel-Palestine and more willingness to open up relations with far left governments like Venezuela and Cuba. All of which is fine by me.

What, at the same time that other Latin American governments, and Latin American voters in the US, have gotten much more hostile to having normal relations with Venezuela and Cuba?

None of these things are going to happen, both because the people who care most in the US don't want to see them happen (on the Gallup poll, consider the huge correlation between people who say they're 'paying attention' to the conflict and who say Israel is justified -- unlikely to have been true 20 years ago, when media concentration was greater!), and because American allies are likely to pressure the US to respond in certain ways.

Israel is running into a perfect storm.

Yes, a perfect storm where most of the Arab countries are on their side for the first time ever, most of the European countries are on their side for the first time in decades, and the American pro-Israeli majority is radicalizing towards opinions few Israelis actually hold. Tell me more?

Austin not sounding confident in Israel here. He's been a very solid defense secretary, not a warmonger at all and a fairly logical guy.

I'd be curious to see more context -- Bremmer's editorializing is very much not what he says in that clip (after all, no one credible has accused Israel of being careless with Palestinian civilians), but I wonder what came before that, and why the hypothetical is being entertained. It would have a different meaning if he were entertaining it himself, or just answering a question from a crazy person in the audience.

[Vosem]

It is just too simplistic to say "young zoomers will grow out of not supporting Israel". The reality is that many people started having a more critical attitude to Israel and Zionism back in the 1980s, and that fundamental shift has not changed despite the expected oscillations in public opinion.

"Israel right or wrong" *is* very much the preserve of boomers and religious fundamentalists now.

This might be true in the UK (and it's true for 'many people' in the US too, I guess -- the weird demographic from whom bureaucrats and journalists are recruited), but in the US the period from around 1988 to around 2018 is associated with an enormous growth in support for Israel among the general public; around 45% of Americans had a positive assessment of the state in the late 1980s, but around 75% did in the late 2010s.

But of course this correlates with a huge decline in sympathy for the Palestinians over the same time-frame (so it isn't "right or wrong" exactly), and also an enormous growth in religious fundamentalism, which didn't really happen in the UK, so it's difficult to say that you're entirely wrong.

[Arizona Iced Tea]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

[Vosem]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

No, the same laws should apply to all militaries and nations. Otherwise you're just hoping "the civilized nation"/whoever takes those laws seriously loses.

The difference in rhetoric is just that Hamas does not bother to deny war crimes, so there is no conversation to be had there, while Israel puts such ridiculous effort into not doing them that catching some slip-up (which, amusingly, doesn't seem to have happened yet in this conflict) would damage their credibility, and so people feel very motivated to go look for "Israeli war crimes". A very important task for the future of democracies being able to wage wars at all is to prevent people like this from having important positions in media organizations, though hopefully this can be neatly solved by having monopolistic media organizations not exist in the near future.

[GALeftist]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

No, the same laws should apply to all militaries and nations. Otherwise you're just hoping "the civilized nation"/whoever takes those laws seriously loses.

Assumes without providing justification that following international law hampers one's ability to win wars.

[Vosem]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

No, the same laws should apply to all militaries and nations. Otherwise you're just hoping "the civilized nation"/whoever takes those laws seriously loses.

Assumes without providing justification that following international law hampers one's ability to win wars.

I think as currently set up it doesn't really (among other things current international law doesn't bind a country fighting an enemy which doesn't obey international law), but it's obviously true that having to obey any rules makes you less likely to win a conflict than a side to which the rule doesn't apply.

[GALeftist]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

No, the same laws should apply to all militaries and nations. Otherwise you're just hoping "the civilized nation"/whoever takes those laws seriously loses.

Assumes without providing justification that following international law hampers one's ability to win wars.

I think as currently set up it doesn't really (among other things current international law doesn't not bind a country fighting an enemy which doesn't obey international law), but it's obviously true that having to obey any rules makes you less likely to win a conflict than a side to which the rule doesn't apply.

I don't know that that's the case? e.g. rules that govern when wars can lawfully be declared probably prevent states from engaging in shortsighted wars that will be costly in the long term.

[Vosem]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

No, the same laws should apply to all militaries and nations. Otherwise you're just hoping "the civilized nation"/whoever takes those laws seriously loses.

Assumes without providing justification that following international law hampers one's ability to win wars.

I think as currently set up it doesn't really (among other things current international law doesn't not bind a country fighting an enemy which doesn't obey international law), but it's obviously true that having to obey any rules makes you less likely to win a conflict than a side to which the rule doesn't apply.

I don't know that that's the case? e.g. rules that govern when wars can lawfully be declared probably prevent states from engaging in shortsighted wars that will be costly in the long term.

I agree with that (and I agree that, for example, following international laws is probably good to keep international opinion on your side, which in many circumstances is worth more in the long-term than some immediate tactical advantage), but kind of obviously in the immediate tactical sense having to obey more rules than your opponent makes your life harder.

To be clear I think the current international norms are actually very well-written and fair! But the ones Arizona Iced Tie is advocating would be stupid and disastrous.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

while Israel puts such ridiculous effort into not doing them that catching some slip-up (which, amusingly, doesn't seem to have happened yet in this conflict) would damage their credibility, and so people feel very motivated to go look for "Israeli war crimes".

In no particular order,

* Defiling corpses
* Looting civilian homes
* An explicit standard of what constitutes a "valid military target" so broad as to be meaningless
* Torture, physical and sexual abuse of POWs
* Murder of disarmed combatants and civilians
* Explicit stated intent to commit ethnic cleansing
* Actions consistent with said intent eg. targeting hospitals and civilian infrastructure to make Gaza unlivable
* Explicit stated intent to promote spread of disease among civilian population
* Genocidal rhetoric (eg. "there are no civilians in Gaza")
* Illegal occupation
* Illegal kidnapping and murder of civilians under said occupation
* Systematic use of torture in prisons against said civilians
* Use of collective punishment
* Use of human shields during military operations
* Use of terror bombing against a civilian population
* Deliberate targeting of journalists
* Deliberate targeting of UN facilities and workers

Perhaps if your entire understanding of the conflict comes directly from IDF spokesmen you may think the Israelis are putting ridiculous effort into not committing war crimes but here in reality it's precisely the opposite. Or maybe you live in the Berenstein Universe and this forum has opened a portal to a world where the IDF really is the humanitarian force they pretend to be, that would explain a lot.

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

https://twitter.com/PaulAustinMurp2/status/1729834160733266143

I don't like simplistic views about foreign policy. It reminds me W Bush and Co.
"You're either with me or against me."

I hate injustice, but beware simplistic views and opinions.

I'm asking how millennials and Gen Z will conduct foreign policy when they'll be in power.

I'm very confused by the Sudan flag and the Turkestan flag.

Do these people think the Arab Sudanese treatment of the Black African Sudanese (incl. South Sudan) was the morally justifiable side in that conflict?

If they're concerned about the fate of the Muslims in Xinjiang, why aren't they protesting against the Chinese government?

[Meclazine for Israel]

https://twitter.com/PaulAustinMurp2/status/1729834160733266143

Australia should be on there instead of Israel.

Then they could reference the Grand Slam tennis opens.

[GeneralMacArthur]

So is anything actually happening in Gaza right now?

This thread has just devolved into stupid bickering.

Meanwhile Israel looks to be gearing up for a full-scale invasion of the southern half of the strip.  Unclear whether they're planning to move civilians back to Gaza City or just have them play musical chairs within different areas of south Gaza.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

So is anything actually happening in Gaza right now?

This thread has just devolved into stupid bickering.

Meanwhile Israel looks to be gearing up for a full-scale invasion of the southern half of the strip.  Unclear whether they're planning to move civilians back to Gaza City or just have them play musical chairs within different areas of south Gaza.

100% of the land of Gaza can barely fit its population.

[FerrisBueller86]

I don't know as much as most of you do about Israel and Palestine.  I probably know no more than the average person on the street.

However, it seems to me that so many entities like to play the Israelis and the Palestinians against each other, much like Al Qaeda playing India and Pakistan against each other or James Bond villains playing both sides of the Cold War against each other.

Does Hamas really care about the Palestinian people it allegedly represents?  Do Iran and other countries opposing Israel really care about the Palestinian people?  It seems to me that these entities are just using the Palestinians for their own selfish interests.

Do Israel's extremist factions really care about the Israeli people they allegedly represent?  It seems to me that they're just using the Israelis for their own selfish interests.

I get the impression that NONE of these groups want anything better for the Israelis or the Palestinians.  They don't want Israelis and Palestinians to come to an agreement.

Exactly how do all these groups benefit from the war and atrocities?  Exactly what would they lose if by some miracle the Israelis and Palestinians came to an agreement on how to divide up the disputed territory?  Do these pro-war interests have weapons contracts or something?

[Reactionary Libertarian]

So is anything actually happening in Gaza right now?

This thread has just devolved into stupid bickering.

Meanwhile Israel looks to be gearing up for a full-scale invasion of the southern half of the strip.  Unclear whether they're planning to move civilians back to Gaza City or just have them play musical chairs within different areas of south Gaza.

They can't go back to Gaza City; half of it is destroyed. Israel will try to move them all to Rafah.

[pppolitics]

Anyone who is still in denial that Israel is conducting ethnic cleansing should see the plan that Israel is proposing to US Congress to expel Gaza's population to other countries.

What Israel wants is a second Nakba.

The plan notes that Egypt should not shoulder the entire burden, but other regional countries should chip in. "Iraq and Yemen receive an approximate $1 billion in US foreign aid, and Turkey receives more than $150 million. Each of these countries receive enough foreign aid and have a large enough population to be able to accept refugees adding up to less than 1% of their population," the stress.

The plan also calls on the US to condition foreign aid to Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Turkey on those countries accepting a certain number of refugees.  

The plan even goes so far as to envision how many Gazan residents each of these countries will receive: one million in Egypt (constituting 0.9% of the population there), half a million for Turkey (0.6% of the population in Turkey), 250,000 for Iraq (0.6% of the Iraqi population), and another 250,000 for Yemen (0.75% of the overall population there currently). Each of these countries receives generous financial aid from the US and under the plan, it should continue to be handed out only under the condition that they accept Gazans. It should be noted that the Biden administration opposes the forced removal of Gaza residents from the Strip but has not ruled out voluntary migration for those who choose to do so.

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11/29/senior-us-lawmakers-review-plan-that-conditions-aid-on-arab-countries-receiving-gazans/

Netanyahu is now shopping around a proposal to “thin out” Gaza’s population and expel the surviving residents into neighboring countries—a proposal that he is pitching to the leaders of both parties in Congress.

This policy, amounting to a second Nakba, would not only be a moral atrocity; it would destroy the reputation of Israel and the United States around the world for decades to come. The consequences of this policy, in terms of future terrorism and also loss of international credibility and fraying of alliances, would be incalculable.

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/biden-netanyahu-bear-hug-disaster/

[pppolitics]

So is anything actually happening in Gaza right now?

This thread has just devolved into stupid bickering.

Meanwhile Israel looks to be gearing up for a full-scale invasion of the southern half of the strip.  Unclear whether they're planning to move civilians back to Gaza City or just have them play musical chairs within different areas of south Gaza.

Israel is preparing a second Nakba.