Judaism

[The Mikado]

I was aware of all that. That's why I was curious why you were quoting the New Testament above. Was it to show that Judaism influenced Christianity? Or was there another point?

it was to show how Christianity fulfilled spiritually what the physical circumcision had foreshadowed.

Oh, I thought we were discussing Judaism though, not how Christianity fulfills the commandments of Judaism. That could be a whole different thread.

If it's jmfcst, assume that any religious conversation is a lot more about Christianity than whatever is actually being discussed.

For you, that was a decent attempt at humor.  It might actually have been funny...

...except for the fact ALL the scriptural based portions of Judaism are about nothing but Christ.

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

But Christ came after scripture. So wouldn't Jewish scripture be...about Judaism? I'm confused. What form of paradoxical backwards future looking are you doing there?

Just to put history into perspective for you:

Jews --> Bible --> Christ --> New Testament

Obviously with some stuff in between. So the Old Testament is about Jews. The New is about taking the Old and applying it to Jesus.

And if this is not the case, care to explain?

I really should call it a night, but...

jmfcst's argument, or, rather, Saint Paul's argument is that Jesus of Nazareth completed the Laws of Moses.  By His sacrifice, he absolved man of rites like circumcision and dietary restrictions.

EDIT:  So therefore the entire purpose of the Hebrew Scriptures would, in jmfcst's logic, be pointing to the coming of Jesus.  See Moses' prediction of a prophet like himself, Isaiah 52, etc.

I think that that's a silly way to read the Bible, but...

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

So if I'm reading it right, we have a fundamental disagreement because he believes that unless I accept Jesus I am going to Hell. And he believes that Jesus is the entire Bible, whereas I consider Jesus a non-entity.

So then my question is...why bother posting here? You're not convincing anyone? And you're not looking to be convinced or to rationally argue the two sides. If you would like to seriously debate this some time, jmfcst, feel free to PM me (although finals coming up and won't have much time for the next 2 weeks).

Otherwise, I think the resolution is, you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. But my book was written first and so that is what we will be drawing from to answer questions about Judaism.

lol. Children. *shakes head*
Wasn't Jesus a jew?

[On the "To Be Deleted" List]

freddy adu bids you adieu

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

I really should call it a night, but...

jmfcst's argument, or, rather, Saint Paul's argument is that Jesus of Nazareth completed the Laws of Moses.... 

actually, Jesus used the argument long before Paul:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

just like the quote from Jesus I previously listed:

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me"

[Senator Ben]

My big problem with people claiming the Hebrew Bible justifies the Christian Bible is that the authors of those books (Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc.), knew the audience they were writing for, and so they could have very easily written something in order to fit the whole story.  It's a big problem that none of these people actually knew Jesus; I could write a biography of Mark Warner after everyone who knew him was dead, and claim that he's the Messiah by making events fit with the Hebrew Bible, and nobody could contradict me.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

My big problem with people claiming the Hebrew Bible justifies the Christian Bible is that the authors of those books (Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc.), knew the audience they were writing for, and so they could have very easily written something in order to fit the whole story.  It's a big problem that none of these people actually knew Jesus; I could write a biography of Mark Warner after everyone who knew him was dead, and claim that he's the Messiah by making events fit with the Hebrew Bible, and nobody could contradict me.

Alright but do you deny all the events? I think that religion exists but it has to do more with the mind than the facts.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

but what makes it the same stuff?

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

no I am just trying to ask questions so you cover what you mean. Sorry I lead you otherwise.

[Senator Ben]

My big problem with people claiming the Hebrew Bible justifies the Christian Bible is that the authors of those books (Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc.), knew the audience they were writing for, and so they could have very easily written something in order to fit the whole story.  It's a big problem that none of these people actually knew Jesus; I could write a biography of Mark Warner after everyone who knew him was dead, and claim that he's the Messiah by making events fit with the Hebrew Bible, and nobody could contradict me.

Alright but do you deny all the events? I think that religion exists but it has to do more with the mind than the facts.

Yes, I deny the events about Jesus in the Christian Bible actually happened, at least the messianic events.  Perhaps some of the quotes attributed to him were his, but not much more.

[© Tweed the Younger]

Yes, I deny the events about Jesus in the Christian Bible actually happened, at least the messianic events.  Perhaps some of the quotes attributed to him were his, but not much more.

the quotes are probably the things least likely to be correct

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I believe the mentions of Jesus in the Talmud, like when one of the rabbis (R' Gamliel for those wondering) turned Jesus away from the house of learning (Beit Midrash) as a heretic. He was actually scolded for being so intolerant of Jesus later on and not having a constructive debate with him.

Oh, what could have been.

Actually, R' Gamliel's best student went on to be the greatest advocate of Jesus' teachings.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I believe the mentions of Jesus in the Talmud, like when one of the rabbis (R' Gamliel for those wondering) turned Jesus away from the house of learning (Beit Midrash) as a heretic. He was actually scolded for being so intolerant of Jesus later on and not having a constructive debate with him.

Oh, what could have been.

Actually, R' Gamliel's best student went on to be the greatest advocate of Jesus' teachings.

Does not in any way contradict what I said though. That was likely part of the backlash. Many of those who felt that Gamliel was overly harsh to Jesus likely spread many of his teachings. What you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, they are complementary in many ways.

This particular student of R' Gamliel was NOT part of any backlash, rather this particular student was Christianity's biggest enemy until Jesus stepped into his life one day and changed his whole destiny.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I believe the mentions of Jesus in the Talmud, like when one of the rabbis (R' Gamliel for those wondering) turned Jesus away from the house of learning (Beit Midrash) as a heretic. He was actually scolded for being so intolerant of Jesus later on and not having a constructive debate with him.

Oh, what could have been.

Actually, R' Gamliel's best student went on to be the greatest advocate of Jesus' teachings.

Does not in any way contradict what I said though. That was likely part of the backlash. Many of those who felt that Gamliel was overly harsh to Jesus likely spread many of his teachings. What you said and what I said are not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, they are complementary in many ways.

This particular student of R' Gamliel was NOT part of any backlash, rather this particular student was Christianity's biggest enemy until Jesus stepped into his life one day and changed his whole destiny.

Could you alliterate more clearly which student?

Saul of Tarsus, of the Tribe of Benjamin, student of Gamliel and better known as the Apostle Paul

[Senator Ben]

I've got a question for the Jews here: do any of you read the Talmud much?  I keep trying to read it, but I haven't found a good copy yet.

[Yamor]

There are a couple of good translations out there, but it'll cost you quite a bit. It's very difficult to study it yourself, even with an English translation. Can you read Hebrew?

[Senator Ben]

There are a couple of good translations out there, but it'll cost you quite a bit. It's very difficult to study it yourself, even with an English translation. Can you read Hebrew?

I can read it, but not translate.  I'll need an English translation.

[Yamor]

I only meant can you read Hebrew. Translating wouldn't help you much anyway, since the Talmud is written largely in Aramaic (although they are very similar), and also, even if you could translate the Talmud, you'd still probably find it impossible to understand.
There are a couple of complete translations. The Soncino edition, which I believe is actually available online, and the Schottenstein edition. The Schottenstein edition is far superior, and is even used by people very experienced in Talmud study.
If you have no experience at all, then I wouldn't advise you to start with it on your own.

[Senator Ben]

So, what would be your advice?

[Yamor]

It depends what you want exactly. Do you want to study it seriously? Just look at bits of it to see what it's all about?

[Senator Ben]

It depends what you want exactly. Do you want to study it seriously? Just look at bits of it to see what it's all about?

Eventually, I want to study it seriously.  For now, though, I want to just get my feet wet, so to speak.

[Yamor]

Well, it's hard to say what you should do... If you don't mind me asking, are you orthodox, reform or conservative?

[Senator Ben]

Well, it's hard to say what you should do... If you don't mind me asking, are you orthodox, reform or conservative?

I belong to a Reform synagogue, and consider myself Reform, but I have views that belong to all three groups.

[Yamor]

I really don't know what to say. I've studied the Talmud since I was 8 years old, and all I can say is that to really understand what the Talmud is can take quite some time and intensive studying. It's not as simple as just opening up somewhere and reading through a few lines. Of course, you can do that, but I have no idea what you should go for.

[Senator Ben]

I really don't know what to say. I've studied the Talmud since I was 8 years old, and all I can say is that to really understand what the Talmud is can take quite some time and intensive studying. It's not as simple as just opening up somewhere and reading through a few lines. Of course, you can do that, but I have no idea what you should go for.

Thanks anyway.

[Purple State]

I really don't know what to say. I've studied the Talmud since I was 8 years old, and all I can say is that to really understand what the Talmud is can take quite some time and intensive studying. It's not as simple as just opening up somewhere and reading through a few lines. Of course, you can do that, but I have no idea what you should go for.

Thanks anyway.

For a line-by-line translation of the Talmud a good company is ArtScroll. It includes the literal translation along with the way it should be read to make sense using commentaries. It is slightly confusing at first to follow what is what, but if you are really interested that would be your best bet. I've used it to help me study the Talmud and it's put together very comprehensively.

Hope this isn't too late.