Zell Miller is on the stage...

[Patunia]

Hes kicking ass because of the circumstances surrounding the race. Ryan was right to step down. But the Illinois race will be the shocker of the election I believe. Go ahead and hug those early polls while Keyes is just getting started. Keyes wont lose by more then 5 points and could possibly win it.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

You actually think Keyes has a snowball's chance in hell? Or that he could even come within 5 points? Gore beat Bush there by 12 points! And you actually think Keyes will bring in some Keyes voters and Kerry voters?

Oh wait, do you actually think Bush will win Illinois too? AHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Read what I said. Keyes is not running against Gore or Kerry. Hes running agaisnt Ocommie. But well just have to wait and see.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Why would someone vote for Kerry and then vote for a right wing extremist like Keyes?

and why was Obama beating Ryan by more than 10 points in the polls BEFORE the scandal broke?

[Patunia]

Why would someone vote for Kerry and then vote for a right wing extremist like Keyes?

Because hes not Ocommie. Why would Massachusetts voters vote overwhelmingly for Kerry or Kennedy but elect 4? straight republican governors? The ones who decide most elections dont have party affiliations.

[So the Heroes Fall]

they elected 4 MODERATE Republican governors, not people who claim that 9/11 was punishment for abortion. And why was Obama beating Ryan by more than 10 points in the polls BEFORE the scandal broke?

[Patunia]

Why would someone vote for Kerry and then vote for a right wing extremist like Keyes?

and why was Obama beating Ryan by more than 10 points in the polls BEFORE the scandal broke?

Dont edit on me while Im replying

That race was just getting started. Ocommie is charasmatic and had an early lead based on that alone.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Too bad I don't know you in real life, I'd make some easy money on a bet.

[Giant Saguaro]

Of course they do. Any US military operations in our own self interest and not sanctioned by the UN is evil.

Then why did Kerry vote for the 2002 war resolution?

Why does he vote two ways on everything? So he can try and please everybody. He voted for the war in 2002 so it couldn't be thrown back in his face, obviously, but it didn't matter if he had because it just ended up another inconsistency.

How do you know his motives?  Were you there?

My opinion?  He voted for the war because it felt it was the right thing to do.

That's fine if that's your opinion, but I disagree. He votes against the Gulf War, smears our vets, the AZ Democrat just 10 years ago says he's proposing cuts far deeper than anyone else, he was against standing up to the Soviet Union, he was for a nuclear freeze, and then he turns around in 2002 with a Presidential run coming up and votes for authorization to use force. Well that goes against everything he had said and done 30 years before it, so it's obvious to me he didn't want it thrown back in his face. But it hurt him a bit anyway, because it showed up as just him trying to cover all the bases.

\


As far as the Intel Cuts goes, yeah the cuts Republicans also passed/

Once again:

If I have to choose between cuts and cuts that will completely gut the Intel community, I guess I'll have to just go with cuts.

They were a bad idea, but read what Kerry wanted to do! If he could have, he'd have smashed our Intel community to virtual nothingness.

Completley gut the Intelligence Community??  Based on what.  Their was very little difference in the total cuts

Based on his votes from the 1980s to the present. In the late '80s and early '90s it was decided upon by pretty much everyone, including the military, that some cuts could now be made. No more Soviet Union. So everyone was for the cuts at that time, the only question was how much. Now in retrospect, yes, we see that they weren't a good idea mainly because in the current context of terrorism UBL had a desire to hold together al-Qaeda, founded in '88, and it was decided upon that the best way to do that was to keep the conflict going, identify another enemy since they had been so successful in fighting the Commies. He didn't want what he had to dissolve, it was too effective to let fall apart. The USA was the next target, and much of it was just that: he wanted a new target so he could keep his movement going and hold it together, because nothing binds like a common enemy. We underestimated him.

That said, Kerry has supported severely cutting the military and intel all along, from the 1980s up till now when he suddenly changes directions and now he says he's for a bigger military and so on and so forth. Well he never has been before and his votes don't match what he says! Again, yes, cuts were backed by the GOP, but they were backed by everyone at that time.

Well guys, I'm getting a bit tired. No, I don't think John Kerry HATES (such a strong word) America, but gosh, I think his judgment is sure screwy. I prefer to keep taking the fight to the terrorists than stop and let the UN lead. But wait, Kerry even voted against war when it was sanctioned by them... actually, I think he's just weak, guys, and I do think he sees us as aggressors. Not what he need now. No. Huh-uh, not for me.

HATES America? No.

Well, good evening or g'night, all, depending upon where you are!  

[Smash255]

Of course they do. Any US military operations in our own self interest and not sanctioned by the UN is evil.

Then why did Kerry vote for the 2002 war resolution?

Why does he vote two ways on everything? So he can try and please everybody. He voted for the war in 2002 so it couldn't be thrown back in his face, obviously, but it didn't matter if he had because it just ended up another inconsistency.

How do you know his motives?  Were you there?

My opinion?  He voted for the war because it felt it was the right thing to do.

That's fine if that's your opinion, but I disagree. He votes against the Gulf War, smears our vets, the AZ Democrat just 10 years ago says he's proposing cuts far deeper than anyone else, he was against standing up to the Soviet Union, he was for a nuclear freeze, and then he turns around in 2002 with a Presidential run coming up and votes for authorization to use force. Well that goes against everything he had said and done 30 years before it, so it's obvious to me he didn't want it thrown back in his face. But it hurt him a bit anyway, because it showed up as just him trying to cover all the bases.

\


As far as the Intel Cuts goes, yeah the cuts Republicans also passed/

Once again:

If I have to choose between cuts and cuts that will completely gut the Intel community, I guess I'll have to just go with cuts.

They were a bad idea, but read what Kerry wanted to do! If he could have, he'd have smashed our Intel community to virtual nothingness.

Completley gut the Intelligence Community??  Based on what.  Their was very little difference in the total cuts

Based on his votes from the 1980s to the present. In the late '80s and early '90s it was decided upon by pretty much everyone, including the military, that some cuts could now be made. No more Soviet Union. So everyone was for the cuts at that time, the only question was how much. Now in retrospect, yes, we see that they weren't a good idea mainly because in the current context of terrorism UBL had a desire to hold together al-Qaeda, founded in '88, and it was decided upon that the best way to do that was to keep the conflict going, identify another enemy since they had been so successful in fighting the Commies. He didn't want what he had to dissolve, it was too effective to let fall apart. The USA was the next target, and much of it was just that: he wanted a new target so he could keep his movement going and hold it together, because nothing binds like a common enemy. We underestimated him.

That said, Kerry has supported severely cutting the military and intel all along, from the 1980s up till now when he suddenly changes directions and now he says he's for a bigger military and so on and so forth. Well he never has been before and his votes don't match what he says! Again, yes, cuts were backed by the GOP, but they were backed by everyone at that time.

Well guys, I'm getting a bit tired. No, I don't think John Kerry HATES (such a strong word) America, but gosh, I think his judgment is sure screwy. I prefer to keep taking the fight to the terrorists than stop and let the UN lead. But wait, Kerry even voted against war when it was sanctioned by them... actually, I think he's just weak, guys, and I do think he sees us as aggressors. Not what he need now. No. Huh-uh, not for me.

HATES America? No.

Well, good evening or g'night, all, depending upon where you are!  

The so called cuts that Kerry favored was barley more than anyone else agreed on.  The whole "gut" issue is INSANE

[Patunia]

Of course they do. Any US military operations in our own self interest and not sanctioned by the UN is evil.

Then why did Kerry vote for the 2002 war resolution?

Why does he vote two ways on everything? So he can try and please everybody. He voted for the war in 2002 so it couldn't be thrown back in his face, obviously, but it didn't matter if he had because it just ended up another inconsistency.

How do you know his motives?  Were you there?

My opinion?  He voted for the war because it felt it was the right thing to do.

That's fine if that's your opinion, but I disagree. He votes against the Gulf War, smears our vets, the AZ Democrat just 10 years ago says he's proposing cuts far deeper than anyone else, he was against standing up to the Soviet Union, he was for a nuclear freeze, and then he turns around in 2002 with a Presidential run coming up and votes for authorization to use force. Well that goes against everything he had said and done 30 years before it, so it's obvious to me he didn't want it thrown back in his face. But it hurt him a bit anyway, because it showed up as just him trying to cover all the bases.

\


As far as the Intel Cuts goes, yeah the cuts Republicans also passed/

Once again:

If I have to choose between cuts and cuts that will completely gut the Intel community, I guess I'll have to just go with cuts.

They were a bad idea, but read what Kerry wanted to do! If he could have, he'd have smashed our Intel community to virtual nothingness.

Completley gut the Intelligence Community??  Based on what.  Their was very little difference in the total cuts

Based on his votes from the 1980s to the present. In the late '80s and early '90s it was decided upon by pretty much everyone, including the military, that some cuts could now be made. No more Soviet Union. So everyone was for the cuts at that time, the only question was how much. Now in retrospect, yes, we see that they weren't a good idea mainly because in the current context of terrorism UBL had a desire to hold together al-Qaeda, founded in '88, and it was decided upon that the best way to do that was to keep the conflict going, identify another enemy since they had been so successful in fighting the Commies. He didn't want what he had to dissolve, it was too effective to let fall apart. The USA was the next target, and much of it was just that: he wanted a new target so he could keep his movement going and hold it together, because nothing binds like a common enemy. We underestimated him.

That said, Kerry has supported severely cutting the military and intel all along, from the 1980s up till now when he suddenly changes directions and now he says he's for a bigger military and so on and so forth. Well he never has been before and his votes don't match what he says! Again, yes, cuts were backed by the GOP, but they were backed by everyone at that time.

Well guys, I'm getting a bit tired. No, I don't think John Kerry HATES (such a strong word) America, but gosh, I think his judgment is sure screwy. I prefer to keep taking the fight to the terrorists than stop and let the UN lead. But wait, Kerry even voted against war when it was sanctioned by them... actually, I think he's just weak, guys, and I do think he sees us as aggressors. Not what he need now. No. Huh-uh, not for me.

HATES America? No.

Well, good evening or g'night, all, depending upon where you are!  

The so called cuts that Kerry favored was barley more than anyone else agreed on.  The whole "gut" issue is INSANE

And if it comes up in a debate Im sure Kerry will tell us how it is seared into his memory how he was opposed to any cuts at all.

Seared...

[Defarge]

Look what's still on Miller's website
http://miller.senate.gov/speeches/030101jjdinner.htm

[ATFFL]

Look what's still on Miller's website
http://miller.senate.gov/speeches/030101jjdinner.htm

That was pre-9/11.  Lots of things changed on 9/11.

Havng come late to this thread I would like to state that the first person who said Kerry hates America was HockeyDude.  Total strawman argument, I am stunned nobody else caught it.

The argument was if Kerry thinks the US as it is now is a force for evil in the world.  You can think that the US is currently a force for evil and try to change that.  THinking America's actions are evil does not equal hating America.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Look what's still on Miller's website
http://miller.senate.gov/speeches/030101jjdinner.htm

That was pre-9/11.  Lots of things changed on 9/11.

not most of Kerry's voting record that he was attacking.

[Democratic Hawk]

Please listen to David Gergen right now on Larry King.
He said that Miller's speech was full of 'venom' and 'hate'.

I agree. Those words coming from a Democrat were just awful and all of this common from a guy, who three years ago hailed that John Kerry as "one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders and a good friend".

His speech was aggressive and although loved by the Republicans, it should alienate moderates. Zell's a conservative. If you don't like the direction of your own party, you should remain loyal to it and fight to change if from within. That surely is the honourable thing to do for either Democrats unhappy with their party or Republicans who are unhappy with their's for that matter.

Both parties are big tents with room for liberals, moderates and conservatives.

Dave

[MODU]

.

Both parties are big tents with room for liberals, moderates and conservatives.

Dave

It's hard to maintain that.  This is why it is time for the parties to split up along more narrow cores, so you don't have cross-overs like this.  

[12th Doctor]

Youre right. Kerry is an asshole. GO ZELL!!

So you think that Kerry thinks the US might be a force of evil?

He has campaigned for president the last 2 years day in, day out because he thinks the US is a force of evil?

You guys can do a little better than that.  Or can you?

He certainly believed the US was a force for evil in Veitnam.

[© Tweed the Younger]

He certainly believed the US was a force for evil in Veitnam.

Again, opposing a military action = hating America.

[A18]

Yes.

Unless you oppose it because you don't think it's worth American lives, etc. But when you think America is evil, you're a moron.

[ATFFL]

He certainly believed the US was a force for evil in Veitnam.

Again, opposing a military action = hating America.

Strawman.  No one but Democrats are saying hating America.  Thinking your nations actions are evil does not equal hating America, and no one is equating the two but some Democrats.  Namely Hockeydude and you, Tweed.

[© Tweed the Younger]

Strawman.  No one but Democrats are saying hating America.  Thinking your nations actions are evil does not equal hating America, and no one is equating the two but some Democrats.  Namely Hockeydude and you, Tweed.

Must I show you Zell Miller's words again?

"John Kerry came back from Vietnam as a man unsure of whether America was a force of good or evil in the world, and still is unsure of whether America is a force of good or evil in the world."

[ATFFL]

Strawman.  No one but Democrats are saying hating America.  Thinking your nations actions are evil does not equal hating America, and no one is equating the two but some Democrats.  Namely Hockeydude and you, Tweed.

Must I show you Zell Miller's words again?

"John Kerry came back from Vietnam as a man unsure of whether America was a force of good or evil in the world, and still is unsure of whether America is a force of good or evil in the world."

You can think your nation is a force for evil and still love it.  If you do, you will try and change it, which Kerry then did.

No one is saying he hated America except for a few Democrats.

Makes you wonder.

[WMS]

.

Both parties are big tents with room for liberals, moderates and conservatives.

Dave

It's hard to maintain that.  This is why it is time for the parties to split up along more narrow cores, so you don't have cross-overs like this.  

Yeah! The big tents have plenty of problems, and I favor a multi-party system in any event.

[© Tweed the Younger]

Both parties are big tents with room for liberals, moderates and conservatives.

Dave

"The Republican Party is a big tent with a narrow door"  Donna Brazile

[Democratic Hawk]

.

Both parties are big tents with room for liberals, moderates and conservatives.

Dave

It's hard to maintain that.  This is why it is time for the parties to split up along more narrow cores, so you don't have cross-overs like this.  

If American, I would certainly be a Democrat. I'm economically "new liberal" (as opposed to "neo-liberal"), fiscally conservative and socially moderate.

If I were ever to be remotely a Republican Party sympathiser it would have to return to the centre and be the party of the likes of Eisenhower and Nelson Rockefeller.

Dave

[© Tweed the Younger]

Then why did he trash Carter? He was president more than 25 years ago. Plus if the party was like that dumbass wanted there would just be two identical parties, what's the point of that?

I missed the first party because I didn't feel like puking, but reluctantly watched the end. Now I think it'd be interesting to compare the vile hate he spewed to Obama's keynote speech at our convention, and then ask where this crap about how all the Bush hatred by liberals is wrong and how liberals hate America is coming from. Obama's speech was the one praising America, Zell just demonized and ripped Kerry, which is exactly what the right claims we do about Bush and it's wrong.

Zell never said that the left didnt have a right to be stupid. He only pointed out their stupidity. Every point he made related directly to policy stances. And keep saying Obama. I love it every time the left brings that commie up. Shifts more votes to the right.

yeah, like his speech wasn't well received at all and he's not kicking ass in the polls. lol. I think NixonNow has some competition here.

Hes kicking ass because of the circumstances surrounding the race. Ryan was right to step down. But the Illinois race will be the shocker of the election I believe. Go ahead and hug those early polls while Keyes is just getting started. Keyes wont lose by more then 5 points and could possibly win it.

Good pick!

[The Duke]

Wow, there's a lot of people in this thread who don't understand the defense appropriations process.