If Minnesota had the UK parties

[they don't love you like i love you]

I was bored.

[Хahar 🤔]

So much LibDem plurality?

[they don't love you like i love you]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

[they don't love you like i love you]

For the record I basically assumed that blacks would vote Labour, and on the basis of the area they're mostly in, I had Jews voting Lib Dem. I have no clue how Jews actually vote in the UK.

Come to think of, those inner-city Minneapolis seats would probably elect far-left anti-war Labour MPs rather than Lib Dems. Hmmm...Southwest Minneapolis would definitely be a Lib Dem stronghold though (too wealthy to vote Labour, too latte liberal for the Tories.)

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

Cornwall votes straight LibDem (always has), and certain parts of Scotland and Wales do as well.

Jews vote Tory, BTW.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

Cornwall votes straight LibDem (always has), and certain parts of Scotland and Wales do as well.

Hmmm, maybe swath of red in west central Minnesota should be yellow then. It is an agrian, not industrial area...

Jews vote Tory, BTW.

Ha. Well St. Louis Park certainly wouldn't.

[Stranger in a strange land]

what about with Canadian parties? Northern Minnesota seems like the type of place the NDP would do well, or at least where it would have done well in the past.

[Linus Van Pelt]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

The UK posters can enlighten us more, but I think a lot of it is basically a Celtic fringe "Labour are the evil urban socialists, but the Conservatives are the English landlord overseers" vote & not particularly ideological. There are not very many LibDem rural seats in non-Cornish England proper. (There are a few, though, and I don't know what they have in common.)

[Stranger in a strange land]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

The UK posters can enlighten us more, but I think a lot of it is basically a Celtic fringe "Labour are the evil urban socialists, but the Conservatives are the English landlord overseers" vote & not particularly ideological. There are not very many LibDem rural seats in non-Cornish England proper. (There are a few, though, and I don't know what they have in common.)

generally, yes, it looks that way, but the LibDems did manage to win a few seats in Greater London and in Sussex. Also, the LibDems don't seem to hold any seats in Northern Ireland.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Jews vote Tory, BTW.

Most orthodox Jews in London do anyway (but, with some interesting exceptions, almost certainly by smaller margins than would be normal for their socioeconomic status). The Jewish vote outside London is mostly Labour and I suspect (though there's basically no way of knowing for sure) that at least a plurality of secular Jews in London are Labour as well (though not for Livingstone, lol).

[Linus Van Pelt]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

The UK posters can enlighten us more, but I think a lot of it is basically a Celtic fringe "Labour are the evil urban socialists, but the Conservatives are the English landlord overseers" vote & not particularly ideological. There are not very many LibDem rural seats in non-Cornish England proper. (There are a few, though, and I don't know what they have in common.)

generally, yes, it looks that way, but the LibDems did manage to win a few seats in Greater London and in Sussex. Also, the LibDems don't seem to hold any seats in Northern Ireland.

Yeah, sorry, I meant just their rural vote (as I say, I don't know about those rural south of England seats) - and no national party has seats in N. Ireland, they have their own Catholic/Protestant parties.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes. I wish I knew more about what type of rural areas vote LibDem.

There's no set pattern, really. You can get LibDem M.P's elected in all sort of areas (including some that seem absurd) based on personality cults (erm... "personal votes"... sorry...) and so on and held in place by tactical voting (which can often reach extreme levels). Even that semi-solid splash of yellow in the Southwest is deceptive; LibDem support in Devon and eastern Cornwall is agricultural and rather conservative (the only frequent difference between Liberal and Tory voters in these areas is religious identification; Anglicans being Tories, everyone else tending to be Liberal), LibDem support in western Cornwall (NOT actually a traditional Liberal stronghold) is a strange thing based mostly on personal votes and mild nationalist sentiment, while LibDem strength in Somerset is mostly a result of Labour weakness* in place that has never been overwhelmingly Tory, combined with some very popular local Liberal figures (like Paddy Ashdown) emerging at just the right time.

In any case, there aren't any agricultural areas in Britain like the agricultural parts of the Midwest; the social structures and farming patterns are too different.

*Labour used to be surprisingly strong in Somerset actually, but got killed dead by economic change (the postwar collapse in agricultural employment (farmworkers have traditionally cast a pretty solid Labour vote) and the final, fatal collapse of the ancient woollen-textiles industry).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The UK posters can enlighten us more, but I think a lot of it is basically a Celtic fringe "Labour are the evil urban socialists, but the Conservatives are the English landlord overseers" vote & not particularly ideological.

More or less true of what's left of traditional rural Liberal support in Wales (though delete "urban" from "evil socialists" (Welsh Labour is stereotypically associated with small industrial towns rather than the cities) and replace "English" with "Anglican"), actually. The Ceredigion Liberals were once so right-wing that their colour was blue into the '70's), actually.

[Хahar 🤔]

Jews vote Tory, BTW.

Most orthodox Jews in London do anyway (but, with some interesting exceptions, almost certainly by smaller margins than would be normal for their socioeconomic status). The Jewish vote outside London is mostly Labour and I suspect (though there's basically no way of knowing for sure) that at least a plurality of secular Jews in London are Labour as well (though not for Livingstone, lol).

Haven't they historically voted Conservative? I may be wrong on this.

Also, the LibDems don't seem to hold any seats in Northern Ireland.

Normal parties don't contest NI.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Haven't they historically voted Conservative? I may be wrong on this.

Dealing mostly with voting in General Elections here... local elections are much more complicated and can greatly confuse things... some of this is my opinion based on my own work so... aha...

Jews (orthodox, secular and all the shades between) usually voted overwhelmingly Liberal before the First World War, mostly because Tory candidates in areas next to Jewish slums tended to love using anti-semitism in their campaigns (often very successfully; there were more than a few parts of the East End that cast far bigger votes for Tory candidates than would normally be expected). After the war, Labour began to dominate in all the Jewish slum areas while better off Jews increasingly moved to rapidly developing middle class suburbs (where, I think but don't know for sure, they continued to vote Liberal) and from the 1930's onwards the CPGB started to do well in some overwhelmingly Jewish parts of the East End, culminating in the election of a Jewish Communist M.P in 1945 (for Stepney Mile End). Here's a picture of him:



The CPGB retained a surprisingly large share of the Jewish vote (especially in the East End) until the '70's, only dying off as the Jewish community grew more affluent and moved to the suburbs. I think they had a couple of councillors in Stepney until the mid '60's (I'll check this soon).

Overall, the Jewish vote (including the orthodox in London; though note that Golders Green and so on were never Labour areas; the favoured party of protest against Tory anti-semitism remained the Liberals and there is still a curiously strong LibDem vote in local elections in that general area) remained mostly Labour until the 1980's although this ever weakened by increasing affluence, suburbanisation and the decline of traditional Tory anti-semitism. In the '80's there was a big swing to the Tories caused by a mixture of things; Thatcher-era Tories just did very, very well in all kinds of suburbia and no ethnic-religious group (then anyway) was as suburban as Jews were, Thatcher was on very good terms with senior figures in the various orthodox communities, while the Left (stronger in London Labour than anywhere else in the country) was widely seen as anti-Jewish; the nasty deselection of Reg Freeson (an old fashioned Jewish lefty) by Livingstone in 1985 can be seen as symbolic. Another picture is needed. Here's Freeson in the '80's;



There was then a huge swing away from the Tories amongst all the more affluent ethnic-religious minorities in the 1990's (most suburban London Hindus had actually voted Tory in General Elections in the '80's, for example), leaving us more-or-less where we are now; in other words, that there is no longer a fairly uniform Jewish vote and that the community is broadly (very, very, very broadly) split along London (including (and especially, actually) Herts and so on) - Rest of England and Orthodox - Secular lines. Affluence is also a factor, of course. With the exception of Hasidic communities the richer the area, the more likely it is that Jews will vote "normally" for their socio-economic status.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well, I may be confusing it with some other country. Thanks for the fascinating analysis, though.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've checked the Stepney thing and... the CPGB won all three seats in the St Mary's ward (Tower Hamlets LBC) as late as 1968. They lost one of these in a by-election in 1969 and lost their last two seats (by miles) in 1971, and polled respectable (but ever declining) votes until finally vanishing in 1986. St Mary's ward covered the core of Whitechapel and still has a small-but-sizeable Jewish population in a few places. Area is plurality Bangladeshi now.

[Хahar 🤔]

Ah. Oona King's type?

[they don't love you like i love you]

I'll redo this tommorow or possibly even tonight, but I can see some rural areas that would see Labour as the party of Twin Cities socialists but the Tories as the party of the suburban plutocrats. Maybe there's an equivalent.

And Canada too possibly. I'll just say Northern Minnesota is basically identical to the parts of Canada that vote NDP. I'm not sure if any rural areas would vote Liberal though, we don't seem to have any (I suppose that's not just not the nature of the area, New England certainly would have some for example.)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

One way of cheating might to see which rural areas FL did best in in the '30's; rural politics is often about traditions, after all.

[they don't love you like i love you]

What I looked at in the map originally was what rural areas Ventura did best in (after all it wasn't really his policies a lot of people were voting for with Ventura, it was basically the whole attitude of opposing both the Twin Cities DFL and suburban Republican elitists. Which is kind of ironic because both the Twin Cities and the suburbs voted for Ventura as well, but still there's a reason Sibley county liked him so much.)

[minionofmidas]

Re the deleted (while I was reading ) NI post. That would be way fun! ELCA (especially if affluent) = UUP, fundie prots (especially if poor) =DUP. Although I suppose (short of South Belfast - middle class Catholics) it'd be impossible to find something to tell SF and SDLP seats apart on...

[they don't love you like i love you]

Re the deleted (while I was reading ) NI post. That would be way fun! ELCA (especially if affluent) = UUP, fundie prots (especially if poor) =DUP. Although I suppose (short of South Belfast - middle class Catholics) it'd be impossible to find something to tell SF and SDLP seats apart on...

Heh, I deleted it do my new thread. Maybe I will do that tonight after all. I think Sinn Fein would dominate eastern St. Paul but would be virtually nonexistant elsewhere. The tough thing would be those ultra-conservative Catholic areas in central and southern Minnesota.

Nicollet County would be especially interesting. North Mankato (50/50 voting on class) + St. Peter (liberal Protestants) + everywhere else (ultra-conservative Catholics.)

[minionofmidas]

Re the deleted (while I was reading ) NI post. That would be way fun! ELCA (especially if affluent) = UUP, fundie prots (especially if poor) =DUP. Although I suppose (short of South Belfast - middle class Catholics) it'd be impossible to find something to tell SF and SDLP seats apart on...

Heh, I deleted it do my new thread. Maybe I will do that tonight after all. I think Sinn Fein would dominate eastern St. Paul but would be virtually nonexistant elsewhere. The tough thing would be those ultra-conservative Catholic areas in central and southern Minnesota.

One thing to look for might be: Are their enough Protestants to have occasionally gotten in due to Catholic vote splitting? That should make for SF victories.

[Hash]

Do it with French parties!